Paul,
This standard is not trying to also provide the human readable description
of the media. That is a good thing, but in some protocol standard, not in a
name standard that is intended to be independent of protocol and be used by
multiple protocols. How could we possibly standardize on free form
descriptions of media?
This standard is dealing with size of the media, both its name and its
dimensions. This string with both values in it wants to be treated as a
name, i.e., that the recipient can just do a string compare with a list of
recognized/supported values, without conversion or parsing. However, for a
client that may want to display the list of the Printer's supported media
sizes, we wanted to allow such a client to be able to display both the name
of the size and the dimensions of the size without having to have a built-in
table. The client can have a built-in table if it wants to, but it doesn't
have to. If the client gets a name it doesn't recognize, it can parse the
string and get both the name and the dimensions and display them both to the
user. And the really dumb client can display the strings as received by the
Printer without parsing.
The agreed requirements have been:
1. Intent is program to program communication of media names. It is
not intended for use as internal representation within a program.
2. Names are to contain size information so that Recipient Software
(Client or Printer) that receives an unrecognized name can still determine
the intended size. Constraints and limitations include cut sheet only,
definition of only English and Metric dimensional units, restrict the names
to use the
characters for IPP keywords
[Hastings, Tom N] TH> Reword to "use in and mm units"
3. Although primarily intended for machine readability, Names
should have some relation to common names. Also, Names should be structured
to present some useful information if presented directly to a user when the
names are not recognized by the machine, which includes both the name of the
media size and its dimensions.
10. Be able to register additional Media Names, including new
Class field/Naming authorities, after the standard is approved.
12, 13 Design the syntax to facilitate parsing by Recipient (Client
and Printer) Software
[Hastings, Tom N] Need to add the requirement about indicating Alias
(Common Names) and Legacy names.
But I think we need to add to number 3 to get in the idea that we want both
the name of the size and the dimensions to be in the same attribute so that
the client doesn't need to have a table or can handle a new standard or
custom size from the Printer. How about:
3. Although primarily intended for machine readability, Names
should have some relation to common names. A client need not have a
built-in table
of media size names and their dimensions in order to be able to accept from
a Printer
all of its supported media sizes and display the size names and their
dimensions to a user.
Also a newer version of a Printer may support additional standard media size
names and be
able to interoperate with an older client. Also, Names should be structured
to present some
useful information if presented directly to a user when the names are not
recognized by the
machine, which includes both the name of the media size and its dimensions.
Comments?
Tom
-----Original Message-----
From: pmoore at netreon.com [mailto:pmoore at netreon.com]
Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2001 18:36
To: Hastings, Tom N
Cc: Herriot, Robert; don at lexmark.com; McDonald, Ira; 'Harry Lewis';
carl at manros.com; ipp at pwg.org
Subject: RE: IPP> Comments on Media Size Objectives
Actually I wasnt saying that - I made a mistake - the requirements do say
that
you want the name of the size and the size. So now I would rephrase my
comment
to - "why do you want the name of the size as well as the size in the same
attribute?"
Once again the requirement is mixing human readable with machine readable.
Why not make a human readable media-description ("Pink A4", "glossy letter -
use
it and you owe me 50cents a sheet",...)
and a machine readable set of attributes (media-size, media-finish, ...)
When you (Tom) asked me how big A4 is my reply would be "I dont care" - the
media description tells me its A4. If I want to know how big it is I will
click
the little box marked 'media properties' and up will come all the little
details.
"Hastings, Tom N" <hastings at cp10.es.xerox.com> on 05/15/2001 06:04:17 PM
To: "Herriot, Robert" <Robert.Herriot at pahv.xerox.com>, Paul
Moore/AUCO/US at AUCO
cc: don at lexmark.com, "McDonald, Ira" <imcdonald at sharplabs.com>, "'Harry
Lewis'" <harryl at us.ibm.com>, carl at manros.com, ipp at pwg.org
Subject: RE: IPP> Comments on Media Size Objectives
No, Paul asked us whether or not our intent was to also convey the name of
the size [sounds like Alice in Wonderland, doesn't it], as well as the
dimensions, and we answered yes.
For example, most metric users don't really know the size of A4, but they
know that is the media they want. A client that doesn't have a data base,
wants to be able to display the A4 name to the user (along with the
dimensions). So we want both name and dimensions.
Tom
-----Original Message-----
From: Herriot, Robert
Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2001 11:57
To: pmoore at netreon.com; Hastings, Tom N
Cc: don at lexmark.com; McDonald, Ira; 'Harry Lewis'; carl at manros.com;
Hastings, Tom N; IMAGING at FORUM.UPNP.ORG; ipp at pwg.org
Subject: RE: IPP> Comments on Media Size Objectives
I have come to the same conclusion as Paul, namely that the size
("8.5x11in")is the only important information and that the name "letter" or
"foo" is at best informational and at worst a distraction that can make
someone believe that us-a4.8x11in and wizo-vend-foo-bang.8x11in are
different.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: pmoore at netreon.com [mailto:pmoore at netreon.com]
> Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2001 2:50 PM
> To: Hastings, Tom N
> Cc: don at lexmark.com; McDonald, Ira; 'Harry Lewis'; carl at manros.com;
> Hastings, Tom N; IMAGING at FORUM.UPNP.ORG; ipp at pwg.org> Subject: RE: IPP> Comments on Media Size Objectives
>>>>> if the intent is to convey the media size to the app why do
> we care about vendor
> names etc. Why isnt the size just sent ("8.5x11in"). Why does
> the media size
> attribute have to include a name at all - are lexmark inches
> somehow different
> from kinko inches?
>> What is the difference between us-a4.8x11in and
> wizo-vend-foo-bang.8x11in if the
> purpuse of this spec is to convey the size of the media. It
> seems that the
> intent is not to convey the size of the media but the name of
> the size too -
> this is a quite different thing (the requirements dont say
> anything about
> conveying the name of the size).
>>>>> "Hastings, Tom N" <hastings at cp10.es.xerox.com> on 05/10/2001
> 02:21:03 PM
>> To: don at lexmark.com, "McDonald, Ira" <imcdonald at sharplabs.com>
> cc: "'Harry Lewis'" <harryl at us.ibm.com>, carl at manros.com,
> "Hastings, Tom N"
> <hastings at cp10.es.xerox.com>, IMAGING at FORUM.UPNP.ORG,
>ipp at pwg.org (bcc:
> Paul Moore/AUCO/US)
>> Subject: RE: IPP> Comments on Media Size Objectives
>>>> I agree with Don that a more user-friendly vendor extension
> mechanism should
> be used, such as vend-lexmark, or custom-lexmark, if we need a printer
> vendor extension mechanism at all.
>> A formal extension mechanism that the IETF uses is important
> for names in
> which the entire semantics is *implied* by the name, such as
> a MIME type.
> However, for our Media Size Self Describing Names the entire semantics
> (i.e., dimensions) of the size name is actually contained in the name
> itself.
>> A more fundamental question is why would a Printer vendor
> that has a custom
> media size, not want to put it into our Media Standard now?
> We'd just add
> it with no vendor name needed.
>> If the printer vendor invents the size after our standard is
> published,
> we've got to have a way to add/register more standard size
> names anyway, so
> the Printer vendor just gets the new size registered with the
> PWG using
> normal standard syntax without the vendor needing to be
> identified in the
> name.
>> Only, if a vendor really wants his name in the media name, do
> we need to
> decide how to do that. We can decide then whether this
> company name is a
> new Naming Authority field or this company name should be
> part of the Media
> Name field. For example, if Lexmark has a new size, say
> playing-card, that
> they really want to have the Lexmark name appear, the name could be
> registered as:
>> lexmark_playing-card_2x4in (If we add Lexmark as a Naming
> Authority)
> na_lexmark-playing-card_2x4in (If Lexmark wants to make
> the name be
> under the na Naming Authority).
>> Tom
>>> -----Original Message-----
> From: don at lexmark.com [mailto:don at lexmark.com]
> Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2001 13:27
> To: McDonald, Ira
> Cc: 'Harry Lewis'; carl at manros.com; Hastings, Tom N;
>IMAGING at FORUM.UPNP.ORG; ipp at pwg.org> Subject: RE: IPP> Comments on Media Size Objectives
>>>>> All:
>> The problem is that if the driver has no knowledge of a new
> standardized
> paper
> size and it tries to parse and display the name, the end user
> will have
> absolutely no idea that "vend-641" is Lexmark defined paper
> size. He might
> be
> able to do something with "vend-Lexmark"
>> **********************************************
> * Don Wright don at lexmark.com *
> * Chair, Printer Working Group *
> * Chair, IEEE MSC *
> * *
> * Director, Alliances & Standards *
> * Lexmark International *
> * 740 New Circle Rd *
> * Lexington, Ky 40550 *
> * 859-825-4808 (phone) 603-963-8352 (fax) *
> **********************************************
>>>> "McDonald, Ira" <imcdonald%sharplabs.com at interlock.lexmark.com> on
> 05/10/2001
> 12:55:01 PM
>> To: "'Harry Lewis'" <harryl%us.ibm.com at interlock.lexmark.com>,
> carl%manros.com at interlock.lexmark.com> cc: "Hastings, Tom N"
> <hastings%CP10.ES.XEROX.COM at interlock.lexmark.com>,
> IMAGING%FORUM.UPNP.ORG at interlock.lexmark.com,
> ipp%pwg.org at interlock.lexmark.com (bcc: Don Wright/Lex/Lexmark)
> Subject: RE: IPP> Comments on Media Size Objectives
>>>> Hi,
>> A whole lot of IETF protocols (e.g., SLP attribute names) use the
> universal IETF convention of 'x-nnn-' as a prefix where 'nnn'
> is the vendors decimal enterprise number assigned by IANA.
>> It's clean and simple and never ambiguous (no two vendors will EVER
> have the same enterprise number).
>> Cheers,
> - Ira McDonald
>> -----Original Message-----
> From: Harry Lewis [mailto:harryl at us.ibm.com]
> Sent: Thursday, May 10, 2001 10:44 AM
> To: carl at manros.com> Cc: Hastings, Tom N; IMAGING at FORUM.UPNP.ORG; ipp at pwg.org> Subject: RE: IPP> Comments on Media Size Objectives
>>> Well, again, I think it is challenging the elasticity of the main goal
> which was to establish one authoritative list of STANDARD
> media sizes. In
> an XML encoding I can picture distinguishing media name as
> belonging to a
> "standard" vs. "private" naming authority. If we MUST accommodate this
> goal in the compromise syntax, I guess I suggest a convention of the
> "class" or "naming authority" such as
>> "vend-xxx"
>> where xxx could be the name of a vendor or customer.
>> Again, I believe it would be better to keep the media names
> in this list
> we are collecting STANDARD and fairly SIMPLE.
> ----------------------------------------------
> Harry Lewis
> IBM Printing Systems
> ----------------------------------------------
>>>>> "Carl-Uno Manros" <carl at manros.com>
> 05/09/2001 10:35 PM
> Please respond to carl
>>> To: "Harry Lewis" <harryl at us.ibm.com>, "Hastings, Tom N"
> <hastings at CP10.ES.XEROX.COM>
> cc: <IMAGING at FORUM.UPNP.ORG>, <ipp at pwg.org>
> Subject: RE: IPP> Comments on Media Size Objectives
>>>> Harry,
>> I think I have to agree with you on most points. In
> particular I like your
> suggestion to change the name as the current name carries too much
> semantic
> connotations, which can easily be misinterpreted.
>> The one important issue I still see is whether we want to lay
> down some
> rules for how to add "private names" which are not in our
> list, be it by a
> vendor or by end customers.
>> Carl-Uno
>> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-ipp at pwg.org [mailto:owner-ipp at pwg.org]On Behalf Of Harry
> > Lewis
> > Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2001 9:13 PM
> > To: Hastings, Tom N
> > Cc: IMAGING at FORUM.UPNP.ORG; ipp at pwg.org> > Subject: IPP> Comments on Media Size Objectives
> >
> >
> > 18 objectives for a "2-bit" "name" field!
> >
> > Comments...
> >
> > 1. We have a compromise, not an optimization (for machine parsing).
> > Suggest the concept of "facilitate" be stressed over "optimize".
> >
> > 4. Edit - "Only include the name in its native units"
> (delete "each").
> >
> > 5. Dump this goal!! (additional units) This has been a rat trap!
> > The compromise syntax we are developing is too stressed by this
> > goal. Save this for a full fledged schema.
> >
> > 6. I think the notion of "self describing" has been misinterpreted.
> > Some feel a description should contain more (margins etc.). Some
> > think "self describing" means easy to read and distinguish. It
> > might be better to simply state... "The "Standard Media
> Name" will
> > contain both a "Name" part and a "Dimension" part."
> >
> >
> > 7,8,9. I think these can all be replaced by simply
> extending the above
> > (6) to read "The "Standard Media Name" will contain 3 parts,
> > 1. Naming Authority
> > 2. Name
> > 3. Dimension
> >
> > 10. Given (6,7,8,9 - above) this is just stating the obvious. This
> > registry
> > is a simple list. If we find stuff we've missed, we
> help ourselves
> add
> > it. If we missed a galaxy or universe our there,
> somewhere... (i.e.
> > an entire naming authority) or if we want to establish
> a new name
> > space, we can readily do so.
> >
> > On and On... I don't know about the rest. Glazed donuts
> come to mind.
> > Or... a real schema development effort!
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------
> > Harry Lewis
> > IBM Printing Systems
> > ----------------------------------------------
> >
>>>>>>>>>>>