At 07:33 01/05/1998 PST, Caruso, Angelo wrote:
>Tom,
>>I disagree that the impressions counters are intended only for
>monitoring. For monitoring, you only need the jobImpressionsCompleted
>and jobImpressionsRequested counters. The fullColorImpressionsCompleted
>and highlightColorImpressionsCompleted attributes were proposed
>specifically for accounting with color capable devices.
I was only talking about jobImpressionsCompleted, not
fullColorImpressionsCompleted and highlightColorImpressionsCompleted.
I agree with you that the latter two are useful for accounting as well
as monitoring.
>>Our assumption was that impressions would be more useful for accounting
>since they are more accurate than sheets. Though I am not an accounting
>expert, I think providing the impression counters gives an accounting
>application developer added flexibility (e.g. so that billing for blank
>sides could be made optional depending on the requirements of the
>customer).
That was always our thinking in doing the Job Monitoring MIB as well.
That is why we made the impressions MANDATORY objects, and sheets
as OPTIONAL attributes. It was only at the last minute that we discussed
the issue of actually implementing impression counters in devices, that
we came up with the idea that "impressions" are really counting sides
that pass past the marker, whether marks are made or not (again, I'm not
talking about color or high light multi-passes).
>>I also agree with Bill Wagner that complete accuracy would require
>measuring colorant use per side. We thought about this and decided it
>was way too complicated for the job MIB. Our compromise solution was to
>propose the fullColor and highlightColor impressions counters.
>>At any rate, it is clear that we need more input from real customers on
>their accounting requirements. For example, if most print shops charge
>one per-sheet rate for color devices and another rate for monochrome
>devices, then the color impressions counters aren't currently needed.
>But providing them offers customers a competitive edge in their billing
>methods since they can be more accurate.
>>Thanks,
>Angelo
>> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tom Hastings [SMTP:hastings at cp10.es.xerox.coM]
> Sent: Thursday, December 18, 1997 10:21 PM
> To: XCMI Editors only
> Subject: RE: IPP> Re: JMP> URGENT: Should impressions
>include blank last pageback sides or not?
>> What about this proposal to recommend, but not require, that the
> back side of the last sheet not count for impressions?
>> Alternatively, we could make a note that impressions is intended
> for monitoring, not accounting, and keep the definition of the
>number
> of passes past the marker, whether marks are made or not.
> Sheets is intended for accounting
> which in combination with the 'sides' attribute selects the
>rate.
> I believe this is what Kinkos does.
>> Tom
>> >X-Sender: spencerdr at vipmail.earthlink.net> >Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 10:03:04 PST
> >To: "Wagner, William" <WWagner at digprod.com>
> >From: David R Spencer <david at spencer.com>
> >Subject: RE: IPP> Re: JMP> URGENT: Should impressions include
>blank last
> > page back sides or not?
> >Cc: ipp at pwg.org> >Sender: ipp-owner at pwg.org> >X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by
> garfield.cp10.es.xerox.com id LAA26719
> >
> >Bill,
> >
> >I'm just monitoring the group, but isn't there a significant
>difference
> between blank pages within a document and documents in a duplex
>job with an
> odd number of pages causing the COMPLETELY blank back side of
>the last page
> to be counted? Almost all page printers include an option for
>not printing
> such completely blank pages, and I think the point about user
>concern is
> well taken.
> >
> >Therefore, perhaps the sentence in the definition of
>impression:
> >> If a two-sided document has an odd number of pages, the last
>sheet still
> counts as two impressions, if that sheet makes two passes
>through the
> marker or the marker marks on both sides of a sheet in a single
>pass.
> >should be:
> >If a two-sided document has an odd number of pages and there
>are no marks
> to be made on second side of the last sheet, the last sheet
>should count as
> one impression, instead of two, even if that sheet makes two
>passes through
> the marker.
> >
> >David R. Spencer
> >
> >Spencer & Associates Publishing, Ltd.
> >Three Giffard Way, Melville, NY 11747-2310
> >david at spencer.com> >1-516-367-6655 Fax:1-516-367-2878
> >http://www.spencer.com>>>______________________________________________________________________
> >
> >
> >>This was discussed in great detail at the LA meeting. If one
>agrees
> >>that the MIB is to provide information on what the printer
>does, which
> >>may not necessarily agree with what the rate structures may or
>may not
> >>be at a particular place at a particular time, then I think
>the
> >>contention that sending a sheet side through transfer and
>fixing steps
> >>constitutes making an impression. The question of how much
>colorant is
> >>put on that page is a separate one. If it is a single period,
>a fully
> >>colored page or a blank page, colorant use is a different
>characteristic
> >>from impression, and one which could be instrumented.
> >>
> >>In most page printers, the information that a page has no
>marking is not
> >>readily available. The page goes though the same processes,
>takes pretty
> >>much the same time and the same wear and tear on the
>mechanism. I
> >>suggest that, unless the printer has a way of separately
>ejecting such
> >>sheet sides, from a printer point of view, treating a blank
>side
> >>differently is an artificial distinction.
> >>
> >>The point may be moot. I am told that commercial duplication
>houses
> >>charge by the sheet, with perhaps a different sheet rate for
>duplex (but
> >>no distinction for blank sides). A large in-house reports
>person told
> >>me that there are no blank pages; there is a header or footer,
>a page
> >>number, or a "This page intentionally left blank" message.
> >>
> >>I suggest that a measure of importance from those actually
>concerned
> >>with the accounting be obtained before the MIB imposes the
>derivation of
> >>another parameter on the printer.
> >>
> >>W. A. Wagner (Bill Wagner)
> >>OSICOM/DPI
> >>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: Jay Martin [SMTP:jkm at underscore.com]
> >>> Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 1997 11:50 PM
> >>> To: Tom Hastings
> >>> Cc: jmp at pwg.org; ipp at pwg.org> >>> Subject: IPP> Re: JMP> URGENT: Should impressions include
>blank
> >>> last page back sides or not?
> >>>
> >>> Sorry, but I must agree with Angelo Caruso with the position
> >>> that most folks are going to be pretty upset if they are
> >>> charged for blanks sides of sheets. Can't say that I like
> >>> that idea at all.
> >>>
> >>> ...jay
> >>>
> >>>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>> -- JK Martin | Email: jkm at underscore.com>--
> >>> -- Underscore, Inc. | Voice: (603) 889-7000
>--
> >>> -- 41C Sagamore Park Road | Fax: (603) 889-2699
>--
> >>> -- Hudson, NH 03051-4915 | Web:
>http://www.underscore.com --
> >>>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>>