Tom,
I suggest that making it optional (should) is undesirable since it
merely adds to the confusion.
W. A. Wagner (Bill Wagner)
OSICOM/DPI
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Tom Hastings [SMTP:hastings at cp10.es.xerox.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 1997 4:04 PM
> To: jmp at pwg.org> Cc: ipp at pwg.org; szilles at Adobe.COM> Subject: IPP> URGENT: Should impressions include blank last page
> back sides or not?
>> At the JMP meeting on 12/5, we agreed that the definitions of
> impressions would count the number of times a media side goes past
> the marker, even if there are no marks made.
>> I think we agreed to that, becasue impressions is supposed to count
> after the sheet is stacked, so that the sheet counter doesn't know
> whether
> the back side of the last page (documents with an odd number of
> pages),
> was marked or not, so we said that it SHALL count.
>> Howver, for an accounting application, the customers may get pretty
> unhappy with having to pay for the final side they didn't use, as
> Angelo points out, when their document has an odd number of pages.
>> URGENT: I NEED FEEDBACK FROM THE JMP LIST BY THURSDAY 12/18 EVENING.
> HEARING NO OBJECTIONS I'M GOING FORWARD WITH THE FOLLOWING:
>> So how about RECOMMENDING (but not requiring) that the number of
> impressions
> for two-sided printing not include counting both sides of sheets
> marked on
> only one side. It may be that the interpreter has to be involved in
> counting impressions, rather than the sheet counter in the stacker or
> maybe
> the implementation only worries about the last sheet and so there is
> just
> an internal status bit that says whether a document has an odd number
> or an
> even number of sides in order to know whether to count the last sheet
> as 1
> or 2 impressions.
>> I suggest changing the sentence in the definition of impression:
>> If a two-sided document has an odd number of pages, the last sheet
> still
> counts as two impressions, if that sheet makes two passes through the
> marker or the marker marks on both sides of a sheet in a single pass.
>>> to:
>> If a two-sided document has some sheets that only have marks on one
> side
> (such as on the last sheet of a document with an odd-number of
> impressions), those sheets SHOULD count as one impression, instead of
> two,
> even if that sheet makes two passes through the marker.
>> BTW, the current definition of "impression" in the IPP Model is:
>> 12.2.15 impressions
>> An "impression" is the image (possibly many print-stream pages in
> different
> configurations) imposed onto a single media page.
>> So it seems that the IPP Job Model is in agreement with the following
> recommendation for the Job Mon MIB:
>>> The full definition of the term impressions (as sent yesterday) is
> for the Job Monitoring MIB:
>> Impression: For a print job, an impression is the passage of the
> entire
> side of a sheet by the marker, whether or not any marks are made and
> independent of the number of passes that the side makes past the
> marker.
> Thus a four pass color process counts as a single impression.
> One-sided
> processing involves one impression per sheet. Two-sided processing
> involves two impressions per sheet. If a two-sided document has an
> odd
> number of pages, the last sheet still counts as two impressions, if
> that
> sheet makes two passes through the marker or the marker marks on both
> sides
> of a sheet in a single pass. Two-up printing is the placement of two
> logical pages on one side of a sheet and so is still a single
> impression.
> See "page" and "sheet".
>>> I propose to soften that definition to:
>> Impression: For a print job, an impression is the passage of the
> entire
> side of a sheet by the marker, whether or not any marks are made and
> independent of the number of passes that the side makes past the
> marker.
> Thus a four pass color process counts as a single impression.
> One-sided
> processing involves one impression per sheet. Two-sided processing
> involves two impressions per sheet. If a two-sided document has some
> sheets that only have marks on one side (such as on the last sheet of
> a
> document with an odd-number of impressions), those sheets SHOULD count
> as
> one impression, instead of two, even if that sheet makes two passes
> through
> the marker. Two-up printing is the placement of two logical pages on
> one
> side of a sheet and so is still a single impression. See "page" and
> "sheet".
>>> PLEASE SEND ANY COMMENTS BY THURSDAY EVENING. NOT HEARING ANY
> OBJECTIONS,
> I'M GOING WITH THE ABOVE DEFINITION FOR THE JOB MONITORING MIB.
>> Thanks,
> Tom
>>>> At 07:18 12/17/1997 PST, Caruso, Angelo wrote:
> >Tom,
> >
> snip...
>> >Your proposed definition of impressions is great except for the
> sentence
> >"If a two-sided document has an odd number of pages, the last sheet
> >still counts as two impressions, if that sheet makes two passes
> through
> >the marker or the marker marks on both sides of a sheet in a single
> >pass." I disagree with this. Why should the odd side count as an
> >impression if it is not marked? And which impressions counters would
> you
> >increment for the unmarked odd side? Some engine architectures
> require
> >that the sheet pass through the marker twice even though the sheet
> only
> >gets marked on one side. This seems like a rather arbitrary and
> unfair
> >policy, especially from the customer's point of view. With this
> policy,
> >if I printed 100 copies of a 5 page duplex document, I would pay for
> 600
> >impressions even though I only made 500 impressions.
> >
> >Thanks,
> >Angelo
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Tom Hastings [SMTP:hastings at cp10.es.xerox.coM]
> > Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 1997 5:37 PM
> > To: jmp at pwg.org; Caruso, Angelo
> > Cc: XCMI Editors only
> > Subject: URGENT: Ambiguity in
> >impressions|fullColor|highlighColorComppleteddefns
> >
> > Angelo,
> >
> > You've come up with a third interpretation of the
> >impressionsCompleted,
> > fullColorImpressionsCompleted and
> >highlightColorImpressionsCompleted!
> >
> >
> > I'm proposing the interpretation based on our discussion at the
> > Dec 5 JMP meeting (which you did not have the benefit of
> >attending).
> >
> >
> > PEOPLE,
> > PLEASE RESPOND TO THE DL THIS WEEK, THURSDAY, 12/18/98, IF YOU
> >OBJECT TO
> > MY CLARIFICATIONS.
> > AGREEMENT REPLIES WELCOME, BUT SILENCE WILL BE INTERPRETED AS
> >AGREEMENT.
> > I'M STILL PLAN TO FORWARD THE JOB MON MIB TO THE IESG THIS WEEK
> >AS WE
> > AGREED AT THE JMP MEETING.
> >
> > First, here is the definition of the term "impression" that we
> > came up with at the meeting (please review the text too, since
> >it was only
> > the ideas that we agreed to at the meeting):
> >
> > Impression: For a print job, an impression is the passage of
> >the entire
> > side of a sheet by the marker, whether or not any marks are made
> >and
> > independent of the number of passes that the side makes past the
> >marker.
> > Thus a four pass color process counts as a single impression.
> >One-sided
> > processing involves one impression per sheet. Two-sided
> >processing
> > involves two impressions per sheet. If a two-sided document has
> >an odd
> > number of pages, the last sheet still counts as two impressions,
> >if that
> > sheet makes two passes through the marker or the marker marks on
> >both sides
> > of a sheet in a single pass. Two-up printing is the placement
> >of two
> > logical pages on one side of a sheet and so is still a single
> >impression.
> > See "page" and "sheet".
> >
> > The three interpretations of these three attributes are:
> >
> > 1. Does impressionsCompleted increment or not when a highlight
> >or full color
> > impression is made? The current above definition of impressions
> >suggests
> > that it does, since an impressions is the passing of one side of
> >the
> > media past the marker whether color or not.
> >
> > 2. Does the fullColorImpressionsCompleted count once for each
> >side of
> > a full color impression or once for each color pass past the
> >side of
> > a medium?
> >
> > For example, if I had a 16-page document that had 10 black and
> >white pages,
> > 5 highlight color pages, and 1 full 4-color page, (number-up=1,
> >sides=1),
> > would the counts at the end of my job be:
> >
> > highlightColor fullColor
> > impressionsCompleted ImpressionsCompleted
> >ImpressionsCompleted
> >
> > 1. 16 5 1
> > 2. 16 5 20
> > 3. 10 5 1
> > 4. 10 5 20
> >
> > I suggest that it is interpretation 1 that we are agreeing to
> >and I'll clarify
> > the fullColorImpressionsCompleted, by adding the phrase,
> >"independent
> > of the number of colors or color passes" to the end of the first
> > sentence, yielding:
> >
> > The number of full color impressions completed by the device for
> >this job
> > so far independent of the number of colors or color passes.
> >
> > I'll also add the parenthetical remake to the
> >impressionsCompleted
> > "(monochome, highlight color, and full color)" to the first
> >sentence,
> > since it is clear from the definition of impression that it
> >includes
> > all, yielding:
> >
> > The total number of impressions (monochome, highlight color, and
> >full
> > color) completed for this job so far.
> >
> > Ok?
> >
> > AGAIN, PLEASSE SEND E-MAIL, IF YOU DISAGREE WITH THESE
> >CLARIFICATION.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Tom
> >
> > The current definitions of impressionsCompleted,
> > highlightColorImpressionsCompleted, and
> >fullColorImpressionsCompleted are:
> >
> > OBJECT-TYPE
> > SYNTAX Integer32(-2..2147483647)
> > MAX-ACCESS read-only
> > STATUS current
> > DESCRIPTION
> > "The total number of impressions completed for this job so far.
> >For
> > printing devices, the impressions completed includes
> >interpreting, marking,
> > and stacking the output. For other types of job services, the
> >number of
> > impressions completed includes the number of impressions
> >processed.
> >
> > NOTE - See the impressionsCompletedCurrentCopy and
> > pagesCompletedCurrentCopy attributes for attributes that are
> >reset on each
> > document copy.
> >
> > NOTE - The jmJobImpressionsCompleted object can be used with the
> > jmJobImpressionsPerCopyRequested object to provide an indication
> >of the
> > relative progress of the job, provided that the multiplicative
> >factor is
> > taken into account for some implementations of multiple copies."
> > REFERENCE
> > "See the definition of the term "impression" in Section 2 and
> >the counting
> > example in Section 3.4 entitled 'Monitoring Job Progress'."
> > DEFVAL { 0 } -- default is no octets
> > ::= { jmJobEntry 8 }
> >
> > fullColorImpressionsCompleted(114),
> >Integer32(-2..2147483647)
> > INTEGER: The number of full color impressions completed by the
> >device for
> > this job so far. For printing, the impressions completed
> >includes
> > interpreting, marking, and stacking the output. For other types
> >of job
> > services, the number of impressions completed includes the
> >number of
> > impressions processed. Full color impressions are typically
> >defined as
> > those requiring 3 or more colorants, but this MAY vary by
> >implementation.
> >
> > highlightColorImpressionsCompleted(115),
> >Integer32(-2..2147483647)
> > INTEGER: The number of highlight color impressions completed by
> >the device
> > for this job so far. For printing, the impressions completed
> >includes
> > interpreting, marking, and stacking the output. For other types
> >of job
> > services, the number of impressions completed includes the
> >number of
> > impressions processed. Highlight color impressions are
> >typically defined
> > as those requiring black plus one other colorant, but this MAY
> >vary by
> > implementation.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > At 12:37 12/12/1997 PST, Caruso, Angelo wrote:
> > >Tom,
> > >
> > >There's no ambiguity in my mind. You increment exactly one of
> >the three
> > >counters ([monochrome]impressionsCompleted,
> > >fullColorImpressionsCompleted, or
> >highlightColorImpressionsCompleted)
> > >for each SIDE completed. If the side requires 3 or more
> >colorants to
> > >produce the impression then it's Full Color, black plus one
> >other
> > >colorant would be Highlight color, and a side that uses only
> >black would
> > >cause the monochrome counter to increment. To display job
> >progress to a
> > >user you need to sum all three of these counters.
> >
> > The advantage to saying that impressionsCompleted, counts
> >black/white,
> > highlight color, and full color, is that an application only
> >need to
> > look at one attribute if it doesn't care about the distinction
> >of b/w,
> > highlight and full color. Also the device might not implement
> > the other two, so it is easier for an application to just look
> >at the
> > one attribute if that is all it is interested in. Ok?
> >
> > >
> > >For example, if you produce a duplex sheet with full process
> >color
> > >graphics on the front side and black text on the back side,
> >then you
> > >would increment fullColorImpressionsCompleted when the front
> >side was
> > >completed and [monochrome]impressionsCompleted when the back
> >was
> > >complete. Since the descriptions of these attributes were
> >changed to say
> > >"For printing, the impressions completed includes interpreting,
> >marking,
> > >and stacking the output", then this implies to me that both
> >counters
> > >would be incremented simultaneously when this completed duplex
> >sheet was
> > >delivered to the output.
> >
> > So with my suggested resolution, the
> >fullColorImpressionsCompleted
> > would count by 1 and the impressionsCompleted would count by 2
> >in
> > your example.
> >
> > >
> > >Is there something else I'm missing here?
> > >
> > >Obviously these objects do not provide detailed colorant use
> >information
> > >for each page. To do so would require objects to count the
> >actual amount
> > >of each colorant transferred to each side. So as a compromise,
> >we
> > >proposed these two new objects (which complement the previously
> >existing
> > >[monochrome]impressionsCompleted counter) to provide enough
> >information
> > >for an accounting application to bill at different rates for
> >monochrome,
> > >highlight color, and full color impressions within a job.
> >
> > I think that the accounting program can still bill correctly
> >with
> > impressionsCompleted counting highlight and fullColor as well as
> >monochrome.
> > It can substract out the monochrome, if it wants to, or build in
> >the
> > charge for color to be less that the correct charge for coloer
> >by the amount
> > charged for monochrome and avoid subtracting.
> >
> > >
> > >Thanks,
> > >Angelo
> > >
> > >> -----Original Message-----
> > >> From: Tom Hastings [SMTP:hastings at cp10.es.xerox.coM]
> > >> Sent: Friday, December 12, 1997 11:26 AM
> > >> To: Angelo_Caruso at wb.xerox.com> > >> Cc: XCMI Editors only
> > >> Subject: Ambiguity in XCMI & PWG Job Mon:
> > >> fullColorImpressionsCompleted(1
> > >>
> > >> URGENT:
> > >>
> > >> The current definition of fullColorImpressionsCompleted(114)
> >and
> > >> highlightColorImpressionsCompleted(115) is:
> > >>
> > >> fullColorImpressionsCompleted(114),
> >Integer32(-2..2147483647)
> > >> INTEGER: The number of full color impressions completed by
> >the device
> > >> for
> > >> this job so far. For printing, the impressions completed
> >includes
> > >> interpreting, marking, and stacking the output. For other
> >types of
> > >> job
> > >> services, the number of impressions completed includes the
> >number of
> > >> impressions processed. Full color impressions are typically
> >defined as
> > >> those requiring 3 or more colorants, but this MAY vary by
> > >> implementation.
> > >>
> > >> highlightColorImpressionsCompleted(115),
> > >> Integer32(-2..2147483647)
> > >> INTEGER: The number of highlight color impressions completed
> >by the
> > >> device
> > >> for this job so far. For printing, the impressions completed
> >includes
> > >> interpreting, marking, and stacking the output. For other
> >types of
> > >> job
> > >> services, the number of impressions completed includes the
> >number of
> > >> impressions processed. Highlight color impressions are
> >typically
> > >> defined
> > >> as those requiring black plus one other colorant, but this
> >MAY vary by
> > >> implementation.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Suppose you have a 4 color process that makes four passes
> >through the
> > >> marker
> > >> for each side, does this attribute count by 1 for each pass
> >or does
> > >> it still
> > >> count just the number of sides?
> > >>
> > >> The advantage of counting the number of color passes is that
> >something
> > >>
> > >> counts for each pass which can be shown to a user. Also
> >accounting
> > >> may
> > >> want to charge for each color pass. Conceivably, there might
> >be a
> > >> variable
> > >> number of passes, depending on the colors demanded by each
> >image?
> > >>
> > >> The advantage of only counting once per side, is that you can
> >then
> > >> compare
> > >> the number of impressions for the job with the number of
> > >> fullColorImpressionsCompleted and determine the percentage of
> >color
> > >> impressions in the job. Also this definition seems to be
> >more in
> > >> keeping
> > >> with the
> > >> concept of "stacking" the media mentioned in the definition.
> > >>
> > >> Since Xerox proposed this attribute, what did we have in
> >mind?
> > >>
> > >> Thanks,
> > >> Tom
> > >
> > >
> >
> >