attachment-0001
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">I'm OK with handling this with new TC
at IANA......if that's OK with Mike Sweet and meets</font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif">his need. It would be a path to avoiding
the interoperability issues.<br>
</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">_____________________________________</font>
<p><img src=cid:_1_070E5D04070E5BBC0069374E852576B9 alt=LEXMARK><font size=2 color=#666666 face="Century Gothic"> </font><font size=2 color=#666666 face="Century Gothic"><b><br>
Jerry Thrasher</b></font><font size=2 color=#666666 face="Century Gothic"><br>
Senior Engineer, WW Corporate Standards<br>
C14/082-1, 740 New Circle Rd, Lexington Ky 40550<br>
Office: +1 859 825 4056 Fax: +1 859 232 7628<br>
thrasher(at)lexmark(dot)com</font>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<table width=100%>
<tr valign=top>
<td width=40%><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><b>Ira McDonald <blueroofmusic@gmail.com></b>
</font>
<p><font size=1 face="sans-serif">01/28/2010 12:46 PM</font>
<td width=59%>
<table width=100%>
<tr valign=top>
<td>
<div align=right><font size=1 face="sans-serif">To</font></div>
<td><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Jerry Thrasher <thrasher@lexmark.com>,
Ira McDonald <blueroofmusic@gmail.com></font>
<tr valign=top>
<td>
<div align=right><font size=1 face="sans-serif">cc</font></div>
<td><font size=1 face="sans-serif">William Wagner <wamwagner@comcast.net>,
wims@pwg.org</font>
<tr valign=top>
<td>
<div align=right><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Subject</font></div>
<td><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Re: [PDL versions?] PWG last call -
Command Set Format - IEEE1284 Device
ID -25 Feb 2010</font></table>
<br>
<table>
<tr valign=top>
<td>
<td></table>
<br></table>
<br>
<br>
<br><font size=3>Hi,<br>
<br>
Jerry - to address your specific concerns:<br>
<br>
(1) Currently IANA Printer MIB includes<br>
- langPCL(3)<br>
- langHPGL(4)<br>
- langPJL(5)<br>
- langPS(6)<br>
- langPCLXL(47)<br>
- langPDF(54)<br>
<br>
(2) IANA is very responsive (days) about<br>
registering new values, so adding (for<br>
example) langPDFis, langPS2, langPDF4, <br>
etc., is feasible and practical.<br>
<br>
I suggest that registering new values with<br>
IANA is preferable to a (probably not<br>
interoperable) optional use of version<br>
suffixes.<br>
<br>
I agree that the Genuine versus Emulation<br>
issue is important for product claims and <br>
for customers - I just don't think we should<br>
try to shoehorn it into IEEE 1284 Device ID.<br>
<br>
Bill - due to repeated changes of our mail<br>
server, PWG Steering Committee decided <br>
several years ago to only put this generic <br>
reference to mailing list subscription info<br>
in our specs:<br>
<br>
</font><a href=http://www.pwg.org/mailhelp.html><font size=3 color=blue><u>http://www.pwg.org/mailhelp.html</u></font></a><font size=3><br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
- Ira<br>
<br>
Ira McDonald (Musician / Software Architect)<br>
Chair - Linux Foundation Open Printing WG<br>
Co-Chair - TCG Hardcopy WG<br>
IETF Designated Expert - IPP & Printer MIB<br>
Blue Roof Music/High North Inc<br>
email: </font><a href=mailto:blueroofmusic@gmail.com><font size=3 color=blue><u>blueroofmusic@gmail.com</u></font></a><font size=3><br>
winter:<br>
579 Park Place Saline, MI 48176<br>
734-944-0094<br>
summer:<br>
PO Box 221 Grand Marais, MI 49839<br>
906-494-2434<br>
<br>
</font>
<br><font size=3>On Thu, Jan 28, 2010 at 10:22 AM, Jerry Thrasher <</font><a href=mailto:thrasher@lexmark.com><font size=3 color=blue><u>thrasher@lexmark.com</u></font></a><font size=3>>
wrote:</font>
<br><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
Re the questions that were raised (not to the point of last call comments
but I guess they should be discussed)</font><font size=3> <br>
</font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
The question about distinguishing the difference between an Emulation and
"Genuine" is not a concern</font><font size=3> </font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
about interoperability, but if there is a legal requirement to make the
distinction. We are checking on the <br>
history of this "requirement" internally, if others on the list
have an opinion, please share.</font><font size=3> <br>
</font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
The question about distinguishing versions of PDLs really comes down to
the user experience, and if <br>
the potential interoperability issues are acceptable to those who want
to parse the string. I'd like to hear</font><font size=3> </font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
Mike Sweet's take on this. Specific examples of this are fairly easy
to cite.</font><font size=3> <br>
</font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
(If a device only supports PCL 3, but simply advertizes PCL, and is sent
a PCL 5 or 6 job that uses HP-GL2 from the host, <br>
there will be interoperability problems)</font><font size=3> </font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
(Another variant on the versioning issues is if a device only supports
PDF I/S, and only advertizes PDF, and is sent PDF V4, <br>
there may be memory issues with processing the job.)</font><font size=3>
<br>
</font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
A very quick scan of vendor web pages and their claimed PDL support .</font><font size=3>
<br>
</font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
Lower end inkjet printers and MFDs support, HP PCL 3 GUI, HP PCL 3 Enhanced</font><font size=3>
<br>
</font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
Lower end lasers that support "standard PDLs" support, Postscript
3, PCL 6, PCL 5e</font><font size=3> <br>
</font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
(Sample from four different vendor web sites, all with list prices under
$300.00 USD)</font><font size=3> </font><font size=2 face="sans-serif"><br>
</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><br>
_____________________________________</font><font size=3> </font>
<p><img src=cid:_1_06237B20062377380069374E852576B9 alt=LEXMARK><font size=2 color=#666666 face="Century Gothic"> <b><br>
Jerry Thrasher</b><br>
Senior Engineer, WW Corporate Standards<br>
C14/082-1, 740 New Circle Rd, Lexington Ky 40550<br>
Office: +1 859 825 4056 Fax: +1 859 232 7628<br>
thrasher(at)lexmark(dot)com</font><font size=3> <br>
<br>
</font>
<table width=100%>
<tr valign=top>
<td width=34%><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><b>"William Wagner"
<</b></font><a href=mailto:wamwagner@comcast.net target=_blank><font size=1 color=blue face="sans-serif"><b><u>wamwagner@comcast.net</u></b></font></a><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><b>></b>
</font>
<p><font size=1 face="sans-serif">01/27/2010 09:01 PM</font><font size=3>
</font>
<td width=65%>
<br>
<table width=100%>
<tr valign=top>
<td width=7%>
<div align=right><font size=1 face="sans-serif">To</font></div>
<td width=92%><font size=1 face="sans-serif">"'Ira McDonald'"
<</font><a href=mailto:blueroofmusic@gmail.com target=_blank><font size=1 color=blue face="sans-serif"><u>blueroofmusic@gmail.com</u></font></a><font size=1 face="sans-serif">></font><font size=3>
</font>
<tr valign=top>
<td>
<div align=right><font size=1 face="sans-serif">cc</font></div>
<td><font size=1 face="sans-serif"><</font><a href=mailto:wims@pwg.org target=_blank><font size=1 color=blue face="sans-serif"><u>wims@pwg.org</u></font></a><font size=1 face="sans-serif">>,
"'Jerry Thrasher'" <</font><a href=mailto:thrasher@lexmark.com target=_blank><font size=1 color=blue face="sans-serif"><u>thrasher@lexmark.com</u></font></a><font size=1 face="sans-serif">></font><font size=3>
</font>
<tr valign=top>
<td>
<div align=right><font size=1 face="sans-serif">Subject</font></div>
<td><font size=1 face="sans-serif">RE: [PDL versions?] PWG last call -
Command Set Format - IEEE1284 Device ID -25
Feb 2010</font></table>
<br>
<br>
<table width=100%>
<tr valign=top>
<td width=50%>
<td width=50%></table>
<br></table>
<br><font size=3><br>
<br>
</font><font size=4 color=#1f497d face="Calibri"><br>
Hi Ira,</font><font size=3> </font><font size=4 color=#1f497d face="Calibri"><br>
</font><font size=3> </font><font size=4 color=#1f497d face="Calibri"><br>
Understood … but I believe it is more polite to ask permission before
posting to the list emails sent privately.</font><font size=3> </font><font size=4 color=#1f497d face="Calibri"><br>
</font><font size=3> </font><font size=4 color=#1f497d face="Calibri"><br>
I simply suggested that, to satisfy the requirements you listed in the
document, it is necessary to be able to understand what the PDL is, and
because there are differences in emulations and versions, it may be necessary
that the reader be aware of the emulation or version. If there is
no way of providing this information, then interpreter either has to deal
with a PDL that is not quite what it says it is, or it has another private
PDL to accommodate. In either case, the underlying objective of the specification
is compromised. Currently, although the string may not be as machine readable
as desired, that information about version and emulation is available.</font><font size=3>
</font><font size=4 color=#1f497d face="Calibri"><br>
</font><font size=3> </font><font size=4 color=#1f497d face="Calibri"><br>
I believe that these are valid points to be considered both by printer
manufacturers and those reading the string. It may well be that, rather
than provide incomplete information, it would be better to use the current
approach.</font><font size=3> </font><font size=4 color=#1f497d face="Calibri"><br>
</font><font size=3> </font><font size=4 color=#1f497d face="Calibri"><br>
Bill Wagner</font><font size=3> </font><font size=4 color=#1f497d face="Calibri"><br>
</font><font size=3> </font><font size=2 face="Tahoma"><b><br>
From:</b> Ira McDonald [mailto:</font><a href=mailto:blueroofmusic@gmail.com target=_blank><font size=2 color=blue face="Tahoma"><u>blueroofmusic@gmail.com</u></font></a><font size=2 face="Tahoma">]
<b><br>
Sent:</b> Wednesday, January 27, 2010 8:13 PM<b><br>
To:</b> William Wagner; Ira McDonald<b><br>
Cc:</b> </font><a href=mailto:wims@pwg.org target=_blank><font size=2 color=blue face="Tahoma"><u>wims@pwg.org</u></font></a><font size=2 face="Tahoma">;
Jerry Thrasher<b><br>
Subject:</b> Re: [PDL versions?] PWG last call - Command Set Format - IEEE1284
Device ID -25 Feb 2010</font><font size=3> </font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><br>
</font><font size=3> </font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><br>
Hi Bill,<br>
<br>
[please read the mail headers in this thread]<br>
<br>
I already PUT it on the WIMS WG mailing list - because ALL<br>
PWG Last Call comments are supposed to be publicly posted <br>
and archived.<br>
<br>
I do not find any basis for document format variants in the<br>
requirements you quoted.<br>
<br>
And the basic method (using Printer MIB enum labels) has<br>
been unchanged (and unchallenged) ever since Mike Sweet<br>
originally proposed this standard at the Open Printing Summit<br>
in Montreal in fall 2007 and the PWG SC agreed to look into<br>
it (i.e., it became my long-standing action item).<br>
<br>
This interoperable labeling of document format variants (which<br>
is NOT possible in Printer MIB) is a major new requirement.<br>
<br>
Allowing document format variant labeling may be possible<br>
with some suffix syntax, but *interoperable* document format <br>
variant labeling is simply impossible. <br>
<br>
Vendors don't currently use the same version numbers to <br>
mean the same thing, and it's way out-of-scope for this <br>
specification to solve *that* problem.<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
- Ira<br>
<br>
Ira McDonald (Musician / Software Architect)<br>
Chair - Linux Foundation Open Printing WG<br>
Co-Chair - TCG Hardcopy WG<br>
IETF Designated Expert - IPP & Printer MIB<br>
Blue Roof Music/High North Inc<br>
email: </font><a href=mailto:blueroofmusic@gmail.com target=_blank><font size=3 color=blue face="Times New Roman"><u>blueroofmusic@gmail.com</u></font></a><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><br>
winter:<br>
579 Park Place Saline, MI 48176<br>
734-944-0094<br>
summer:<br>
PO Box 221 Grand Marais, MI 49839<br>
906-494-2434</font><font size=3><br>
</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><br>
On Wed, Jan 27, 2010 at 5:41 PM, William Wagner <</font><a href=mailto:wamwagner@comcast.net target=_blank><font size=3 color=blue face="Times New Roman"><u>wamwagner@comcast.net</u></font></a><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">>
wrote:</font><font size=3> </font><font size=4 color=#1f497d face="Times New Roman"><br>
Do either of you object if we put this on the PMP/WIMS mailing list and
include it in the face-to-face discussion?</font><font size=3> </font><font size=4 color=#1f497d face="Times New Roman"><br>
</font><font size=3> </font><font size=4 color=#1f497d face="Times New Roman"><br>
With respect to Ira’s comments, one may argue that design requirements
5-7</font><font size=3> </font>
<p><font size=3 face="Symbol">·</font><font size=1 face="Times New Roman">
</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">should
support automatic device driver installation by client and server operating
systems (see section 3.2).</font><font size=3> </font>
<p><font size=3 face="Symbol">·</font><font size=1 face="Times New Roman">
</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">should
support interoperable advertising of implemented document formats by network
spoolers and network Printers (see sections 3.1 and 3.2).</font><font size=3>
</font>
<p><font size=3 face="Symbol">·</font><font size=1 face="Times New Roman">
</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">should
support interoperable discovery of available document formats by Imaging
Clients and Imaging Servers (see sections 3.1 and 3.2).</font><font size=3>
</font>
<p><font size=4 face="Times New Roman">would suggest a document format
method that did distinguish between variations on a language without the
need for creating a slew of vendor-specific language identifications.
</font>
<p><font size=4 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=3> </font>
<p><font size=4 face="Times New Roman">Thanks,</font><font size=3> </font>
<p><font size=4 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=3> </font>
<p><font size=4 face="Times New Roman">Bill Wagner</font><font size=3>
</font><font size=4 color=#1f497d face="Times New Roman"><br>
</font><font size=3> </font><font size=2 face="Times New Roman"><b><br>
From:</b> Ira McDonald [mailto:</font><a href=mailto:blueroofmusic@gmail.com target=_blank><font size=2 color=blue face="Times New Roman"><u>blueroofmusic@gmail.com</u></font></a><font size=2 face="Times New Roman">]
<b><br>
Sent:</b> Wednesday, January 27, 2010 3:29 PM<b><br>
To:</b> William Wagner; </font><a href=mailto:wims@pwg.org target=_blank><font size=2 color=blue face="Times New Roman"><u>wims@pwg.org</u></font></a><font size=2 face="Times New Roman">;
Ira McDonald<b><br>
Cc:</b> Jerry Thrasher<b><br>
Subject:</b> Re: [PDL versions?] PWG last call - Command Set Format - IEEE1284
Device ID -25 Feb 2010</font><font size=3> </font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><br>
</font><font size=3> </font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><br>
Hi Jerry,<br>
<br>
The short answers to your questions are:<br>
<br>
(1) Distinguishing Emulation from Genuine was not a<br>
design objective.<br>
<br>
(2) Distinguishing PDL versions was also not a design<br>
objective (or plausibly interoperable).<br>
- The use and misuse of the corresponding version<br>
elements in the Printer MIB v1/v2 prtInterpreterTable<br>
is a hopeless mess.<br>
- Nobody was willing to let the editors to address this<br>
when we did Printer MIB v2.<br>
<br>
So, inserting version information may work for a given<br>
vendor, but completely breaks interoperability across<br>
different spoolers and OS environments.<br>
<br>
We could perhaps introduce a syntax for version<br>
suffixes, but the chances that vendors will correctly<br>
implement it seems very unlikely.<br>
<br>
Bearing in mind the machine-readability imperative,<br>
do you have an interoperable version suffix format<br>
to propose? <br>
<br>
Or an interoperable Emulation versus Genuine suffix<br>
format?<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
- Ira (1284 Cmd Set editor)<br>
<br>
Ira McDonald (Musician / Software Architect)<br>
Chair - Linux Foundation Open Printing WG<br>
Co-Chair - TCG Hardcopy WG<br>
IETF Designated Expert - IPP & Printer MIB<br>
Blue Roof Music/High North Inc<br>
email: </font><a href=mailto:blueroofmusic@gmail.com target=_blank><font size=3 color=blue face="Times New Roman"><u>blueroofmusic@gmail.com</u></font></a><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><br>
winter:<br>
579 Park Place Saline, MI 48176<br>
734-944-0094<br>
summer:<br>
PO Box 221 Grand Marais, MI 49839<br>
906-494-2434</font><font size=3> </font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><br>
On Wed, Jan 27, 2010 at 11:58 AM, William Wagner <</font><a href=mailto:wamwagner@comcast.net target=_blank><font size=3 color=blue face="Times New Roman"><u>wamwagner@comcast.net</u></font></a><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">>
wrote:</font><font size=3> </font><font size=4 color=#1f497d face="Times New Roman"><br>
Hi Jerry,</font><font size=3> </font><font size=4 color=#1f497d face="Times New Roman"><br>
</font><font size=3> </font><font size=4 color=#1f497d face="Times New Roman"><br>
I am sending your questions onto Ira. I think your two points are very
good ones. My take on them:</font><font size=3> </font><font size=4 color=#1f497d face="Times New Roman"><br>
</font><font size=3> </font><font size=4 color=#1f497d face="Times New Roman"><br>
The spec allows for </font><font size=4 face="Times New Roman">PrtInterpreterLangFamilyTC,
mime-media-type, and </font><font size=4 color=#1f497d face="Times New Roman">Private
type designations. </font><font size=4 face="Times New Roman">PrtInterpreterLangFamilyTC
does not provide for version and emulation variations; mime-types for all
of the variations do not exist, and would be cumbersome if they were to
be all registered; and having applications understand the difference between
private types is unrealistic.</font><font size=3> </font><font size=4 face="Times New Roman"><br>
</font><font size=3> </font><font size=4 face="Times New Roman"><br>
The intent is machine identification of the command language. Just indicating
(by an appropriate means… placing “emulation” after the designation
does not appear consistent with the spec) that a pdl is an emulation
warns the interpreter that there may be differences from the defined set,
but these will likely be different from one emulation to another. I think
the best approach depends on how good the emulation is (as an emulation,
not as a PDL). But, barring having to define and designate each emulation
as a separate PDL, there might be some benefit in somehow flagging that
a PDL might deviate somewhat from the defined language.</font><font size=3>
</font><font size=4 face="Times New Roman"><br>
</font><font size=3> </font><font size=4 face="Times New Roman"><br>
Major Version differences are likely more drastic, more likely to
be independently defined and since there should be fewer of them that possible
emulations, more amenable to being listed as separate MIB or MIME types.
That is, there is little advantage in knowing the language is up-version
(other than expecting differences) unless the interpreter knows what
the differences are. To be able to do this, the version and its definitive
reference should be identified in a standard way. The problem then, of
course, is who is going to register these versions.</font><font size=3>
</font><font size=4 face="Times New Roman"><br>
</font><font size=3> </font><font size=4 face="Times New Roman"><br>
Thanks for the input.</font><font size=3> </font><font size=4 face="Times New Roman"><br>
</font><font size=3> </font><font size=4 face="Times New Roman"><br>
Bill Wagner</font><font size=3> </font><font size=4 color=#1f497d face="Times New Roman"><br>
</font><font size=3> </font><font size=4 color=#1f497d face="Times New Roman"><br>
</font><font size=3> </font>
<p>
<table width=100%>
<tr valign=top>
<td width=23%><font size=1 face="Times New Roman"><b>Jerry Thrasher/Lex/Lexmark</b></font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">
</font>
<p><font size=1 face="Times New Roman">01/27/2010 09:07 AM</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">
</font>
<td width=76%>
<br>
<table width=100%>
<tr valign=top>
<td width=6%>
<div align=right><font size=1 face="Times New Roman">To</font></div>
<td width=93%><font size=1 face="Times New Roman">"William Wagner"
<</font><a href=mailto:wamwagner@comcast.net target=_blank><font size=1 color=blue face="Times New Roman"><u>wamwagner@comcast.net</u></font></a><font size=1 face="Times New Roman">></font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">
</font>
<tr valign=top>
<td>
<div align=right><font size=1 face="Times New Roman">cc</font></div>
<td>
<tr valign=top>
<td>
<div align=right><font size=1 face="Times New Roman">Subject</font></div>
<td><font size=1 face="Times New Roman">Re: [Pwg-Announce] PWG last call
- Command Set Format - IEEE1284 Device ID -25
Feb 2010</font></table>
<br><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><br>
</font><font size=3> </font>
<p>
<p>
<br>
<table width=100%>
<tr valign=top>
<td width=50%>
<td width=50%></table>
<br></table>
<p><font size=2 face="Times New Roman"><br>
<br>
Bill,</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="Times New Roman"><br>
<br>
A couple of questions have come up with respect to what's really required
to be done and what</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="Times New Roman"><br>
can be done with respect to two particular issues.</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">
</font><font size=2 face="Times New Roman"><br>
1. The percieve requirement for not confusing PDL emulation with "true"
PDL support</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="Times New Roman"><br>
Example, Postscript Emulation vs. Adobe PostScript and PCL Emulation vs.
HP PCL support.</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="Times New Roman"><br>
2. The need for the ability for versioning of the various PDLs.</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">
</font><font size=2 face="Times New Roman"><br>
PCL 6 is very different from PCL 3 (most low end inkjet printers still
support only PCL 3, the first</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">
</font><font size=2 face="Times New Roman"><br>
PCL to support color).</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="Times New Roman"><br>
<br>
So here's what I'm talking about from a real string.</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">
</font><font size=2 face="Times New Roman"><br>
Example:</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </font><font size=2 face="Times New Roman"><br>
If the current CMD string is:</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">
</font><font size=2 face="Times New Roman"><br>
<br>
COMMAND SET:PCL 6 Emulation, PostScript Level 3 Emulation, NPAP, PJL;</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">
</font><font size=2 face="Times New Roman"><br>
<br>
Would a compliant string simply be:</font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman">
</font><font size=2 face="Times New Roman"><br>
<br>
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<p><img src=cid:_1_07FCC3D407FCC1800069374E852576B9 alt=LEXMARK><font size=2 color=#666666 face="Times New Roman"> <b><br>
Jerry Thrasher</b><br>
Senior Engineer, WW Corporate Standards<br>
C14/082-1, 740 New Circle Rd, Lexington Ky 40550<br>
Office: +1 859 825 4056 Fax: +1 859 232 7628<br>
thrasher(at)lexmark(dot)com</font><font size=3> </font><font size=3 face="Times New Roman"><br>
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