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<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Hi Ira,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Understood … but I believe it is more polite to ask
permission before posting to the list emails sent privately.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>I simply suggested that, to satisfy the requirements you listed
in the document, it is necessary to be able to understand what the PDL is, and
because there are differences in emulations and versions, it may be necessary that
the reader be aware of the emulation or version. If there is no way of
providing this information, then interpreter either has to deal with a PDL that
is not quite what it says it is, or it has another private PDL to accommodate.
In either case, the underlying objective of the specification is compromised.
Currently, although the string may not be as machine readable as desired, that information
about version and emulation is available.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>I believe that these are valid points to be considered both by
printer manufacturers and those reading the string. It may well be that, rather
than provide incomplete information, it would be better to use the current
approach.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Bill Wagner<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:14.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'>
<p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Ira McDonald
[mailto:blueroofmusic@gmail.com] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, January 27, 2010 8:13 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> William Wagner; Ira McDonald<br>
<b>Cc:</b> wims@pwg.org; Jerry Thrasher<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [PDL versions?] PWG last call - Command Set Format -
IEEE1284 Device ID -25 Feb 2010<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>Hi Bill,<br>
<br>
[please read the mail headers in this thread]<br>
<br>
I already PUT it on the WIMS WG mailing list - because ALL<br>
PWG Last Call comments are supposed to be publicly posted <br>
and archived.<br>
<br>
I do not find any basis for document format variants in the<br>
requirements you quoted.<br>
<br>
And the basic method (using Printer MIB enum labels) has<br>
been unchanged (and unchallenged) ever since Mike Sweet<br>
originally proposed this standard at the Open Printing Summit<br>
in Montreal in fall 2007 and the PWG SC agreed to look into<br>
it (i.e., it became my long-standing action item).<br>
<br>
This interoperable labeling of document format variants (which<br>
is NOT possible in Printer MIB) is a major new requirement.<br>
<br>
Allowing document format variant labeling may be possible<br>
with some suffix syntax, but *interoperable* document format <br>
variant labeling is simply impossible. <br>
<br>
Vendors don't currently use the same version numbers to <br>
mean the same thing, and it's way out-of-scope for this <br>
specification to solve *that* problem.<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
- Ira<br>
<br clear=all>
Ira McDonald (Musician / Software Architect)<br>
Chair - Linux Foundation Open Printing WG<br>
Co-Chair - TCG Hardcopy WG<br>
IETF Designated Expert - IPP & Printer MIB<br>
Blue Roof Music/High North Inc<br>
email: <a href="mailto:blueroofmusic@gmail.com">blueroofmusic@gmail.com</a><br>
winter:<br>
579 Park Place Saline, MI 48176<br>
734-944-0094<br>
summer:<br>
PO Box 221 Grand Marais, MI 49839<br>
906-494-2434<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal>On Wed, Jan 27, 2010 at 5:41 PM, William Wagner <<a
href="mailto:wamwagner@comcast.net">wamwagner@comcast.net</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:14.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Do either of you object if we put this
on the PMP/WIMS mailing list and include it in the face-to-face discussion?</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:14.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:14.0pt;color:#1F497D'>With respect to Ira’s comments,
one may argue that design requirements 5-7</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style='margin-left:.75in;text-align:justify'><span style='font-family:Symbol'>·</span><span
style='font-size:7.0pt'> </span>should
support automatic device driver installation by client and server operating
systems (see section 3.2).<o:p></o:p></p>
<p style='margin-left:.75in;text-align:justify'><span style='font-family:Symbol'>·</span><span
style='font-size:7.0pt'> </span>should
support interoperable advertising of implemented document formats by network
spoolers and network Printers (see sections 3.1 and 3.2).<o:p></o:p></p>
<p style='margin-left:.75in;text-align:justify'><span style='font-family:Symbol'>·</span><span
style='font-size:7.0pt'> </span>should
support interoperable discovery of available document formats by Imaging
Clients and Imaging Servers (see sections 3.1 and 3.2).<o:p></o:p></p>
<p style='text-align:justify'><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>would suggest a
document format method that did distinguish between variations on a language
without the need for creating a slew of vendor-specific language
identifications. </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style='text-align:justify'><span style='font-size:14.0pt'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style='text-align:justify'><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>Thanks,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style='text-align:justify'><span style='font-size:14.0pt'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p style='text-align:justify'><span style='font-size:14.0pt'>Bill Wagner</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:14.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<div style='border:none;border-top:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in;
border-color:-moz-use-text-color -moz-use-text-color'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span
style='font-size:10.0pt'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt'> Ira
McDonald [mailto:<a href="mailto:blueroofmusic@gmail.com" target="_blank">blueroofmusic@gmail.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, January 27, 2010 3:29 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> William Wagner; <a href="mailto:wims@pwg.org" target="_blank">wims@pwg.org</a>;
Ira McDonald<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Jerry Thrasher<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [PDL versions?] PWG last call - Command Set Format -
IEEE1284 Device ID -25 Feb 2010</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-bottom:12.0pt'>Hi
Jerry,<br>
<br>
The short answers to your questions are:<br>
<br>
(1) Distinguishing Emulation from Genuine was not a<br>
design objective.<br>
<br>
(2) Distinguishing PDL versions was also not a design<br>
objective (or plausibly interoperable).<br>
- The use and misuse of the corresponding version<br>
elements in the Printer MIB v1/v2 prtInterpreterTable<br>
is a hopeless mess.<br>
- Nobody was willing to let the editors to address this<br>
when we did Printer MIB v2.<br>
<br>
So, inserting version information may work for a given<br>
vendor, but completely breaks interoperability across<br>
different spoolers and OS environments.<br>
<br>
We could perhaps introduce a syntax for version<br>
suffixes, but the chances that vendors will correctly<br>
implement it seems very unlikely.<br>
<br>
Bearing in mind the machine-readability imperative,<br>
do you have an interoperable version suffix format<br>
to propose? <br>
<br>
Or an interoperable Emulation versus Genuine suffix<br>
format?<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
- Ira (1284 Cmd Set editor)<br>
<br clear=all>
Ira McDonald (Musician / Software Architect)<br>
Chair - Linux Foundation Open Printing WG<br>
Co-Chair - TCG Hardcopy WG<br>
IETF Designated Expert - IPP & Printer MIB<br>
Blue Roof Music/High North Inc<br>
email: <a href="mailto:blueroofmusic@gmail.com" target="_blank">blueroofmusic@gmail.com</a><br>
winter:<br>
579 Park Place Saline, MI 48176<br>
734-944-0094<br>
summer:<br>
PO Box 221 Grand Marais, MI 49839<br>
906-494-2434<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'>On
Wed, Jan 27, 2010 at 11:58 AM, William Wagner <<a
href="mailto:wamwagner@comcast.net" target="_blank">wamwagner@comcast.net</a>>
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:14.0pt;color:#1F497D'>Hi Jerry,</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:14.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:14.0pt;color:#1F497D'>I am sending your questions onto Ira. I
think your two points are very good ones. My take on them:</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:14.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:14.0pt;color:#1F497D'>The spec allows for </span><span
style='font-size:14.0pt'>PrtInterpreterLangFamilyTC, mime-media-type, and <span
style='color:#1F497D'>Private type designations. </span>PrtInterpreterLangFamilyTC
does not provide for version and emulation variations; mime-types for all of
the variations do not exist, and would be cumbersome if they were to be all registered;
and having applications understand the difference between private types is
unrealistic.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:14.0pt'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:14.0pt'>The intent is machine identification of the command
language. Just indicating (by an appropriate means… placing
“emulation” after the designation does not appear consistent
with the spec) that a pdl is an emulation warns the interpreter that
there may be differences from the defined set, but these will likely be
different from one emulation to another. I think the best approach depends on
how good the emulation is (as an emulation, not as a PDL). But, barring having
to define and designate each emulation as a separate PDL, there might be
some benefit in somehow flagging that a PDL might deviate somewhat from the
defined language.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:14.0pt'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:14.0pt'>Major Version differences are likely more
drastic, more likely to be independently defined and since there should
be fewer of them that possible emulations, more amenable to being listed as
separate MIB or MIME types. That is, there is little advantage in knowing the
language is up-version (other than expecting differences) unless the
interpreter knows what the differences are. To be able to do this, the version
and its definitive reference should be identified in a standard way. The
problem then, of course, is who is going to register these versions.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:14.0pt'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:14.0pt'>Thanks for the input.</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:14.0pt'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:14.0pt'>Bill Wagner</span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:14.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span
style='font-size:14.0pt;color:#1F497D'> </span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><b><span
style='font-size:7.5pt'>Jerry Thrasher/Lex/Lexmark</span></b> <o:p></o:p></p>
<p><span style='font-size:7.5pt'>01/27/2010 09:07 AM</span> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal align=right style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto;text-align:right'><span style='font-size:7.5pt'>To</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto'><span style='font-size:7.5pt'>"William Wagner" <<a
href="mailto:wamwagner@comcast.net" target="_blank">wamwagner@comcast.net</a>></span>
<o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal align=right style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto;text-align:right'><span style='font-size:7.5pt'>cc</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal align=right style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto;text-align:right'><span style='font-size:7.5pt'>Subject</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
<td valign=top style='padding:.75pt .75pt .75pt .75pt'>
<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:
auto'><span style='font-size:7.5pt'>Re: [Pwg-Announce] PWG last call -
Command Set Format - IEEE1284 Device ID -25 Feb
2010</span><o:p></o:p></p>
</td>
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<p><br>
<br>
<span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Bill,</span> <br>
<br>
<span style='font-size:10.0pt'>A couple of questions have come up with respect
to what's really required to be done and what</span> <br>
<span style='font-size:10.0pt'>can be done with respect to two particular
issues.</span> <br>
<span style='font-size:10.0pt'>1. The percieve requirement for not confusing
PDL emulation with "true" PDL support</span> <br>
<span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Example, Postscript Emulation vs. Adobe
PostScript and PCL Emulation vs. HP PCL support.</span> <br>
<span style='font-size:10.0pt'>2. The need for the ability for versioning of
the various PDLs.</span> <br>
<span style='font-size:10.0pt'>PCL 6 is very different from PCL 3 (most low end
inkjet printers still support only PCL 3, the first</span> <br>
<span style='font-size:10.0pt'>PCL to support color).</span> <br>
<br>
<span style='font-size:10.0pt'>So here's what I'm talking about from a real
string.</span> <br>
<span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Example:</span> <br>
<span style='font-size:10.0pt'>If the current CMD string is:</span> <br>
<br>
<span style='font-size:10.0pt'>COMMAND SET:PCL 6 Emulation, PostScript Level 3
Emulation, NPAP, PJL;</span> <br>
<br>
<span style='font-size:10.0pt'>Would a compliant string simply be:</span> <br>
<br>
<span style='font-size:10.0pt'>COMMAND SET:PCL,PS,PCL 6 Emulation, PostScript
Level 3 Emulation, NPAP, PJL;</span> <br>
<span style='font-size:10.0pt'><br>
</span>_____________________________________ <o:p></o:p></p>
<p><img border=0 width=164 height=46 id="_x0000_i1025"
src="cid:image001.gif@01CA9F93.00F0CB30" alt=LEXMARK><span style='font-size:
10.0pt;color:#666666'> <b><br>
Jerry Thrasher</b><br>
Senior Engineer, WW Corporate Standards<br>
C14/082-1, 740 New Circle Rd, Lexington Ky 40550<br>
Office: +1 859 825 4056 Fax: +1 859 232 7628<br>
thrasher(at)lexmark(dot)com</span><o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'> <o:p></o:p></p>
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<p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p>
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