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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META HTTP-EQUIV="Content-Type" CONTENT="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1"> <META content="MSHTML 6.00.2800.1595" name=GENERATOR></HEAD> <BODY> <DIV><SPAN class=466082221-15082007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=4>Hi Rick,</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=466082221-15082007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=4></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=466082221-15082007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=4>All of what Bill says below is why Abstract Counter spec says MUST for </FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=466082221-15082007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=4>'lifetime' System-level counters and SHOULD for 'lifetime' Service-level</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=466082221-15082007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=4>counters (we felt that any higher conformance requirement would be too</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=466082221-15082007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=4>often violated).</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=466082221-15082007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=4></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=466082221-15082007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=4>By analogy, the PDM MIB/XML should probably say SHOULD for 'lifetime'</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=466082221-15082007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=4>counters (since it's a component of a system, but not the whole system)?</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=466082221-15082007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=4></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=466082221-15082007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=4>Or, PDM WG could agree to really keep non-volatile 'lifetime' counters and</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=466082221-15082007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=4>NOT clear them with a service person's 'factoryReset' operation.</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=466082221-15082007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=4></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=466082221-15082007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=4>Cheers,</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=466082221-15082007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=4>- Ira</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <P><FONT size=2>Ira McDonald (Musician / Software Architect)<BR>Chair - Linux Foundation Open Printing WG<BR>Blue Roof Music / High North Inc<BR>PO Box 221  Grand Marais, MI  49839<BR>phone: +1-906-494-2434<BR>email: imcdonald@sharplabs.com</FONT> </P> <DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> wamwagner@comcast.net [mailto:wamwagner@comcast.net]<BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, August 15, 2007 2:10 PM<BR><B>To:</B> Richard_Landau@Dell.com; McDonald, Ira; wims@pwg.org<BR><B>Cc:</B> blueroofmusic@gmail.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: WIMS> When are counters reset, if ever?<BR><BR></FONT></DIV> <DIV>A few observations.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When the printer MIB was first worked on, there was some concern about lifetime persistance because of the cost, limited capacity, and limited write cycles of persisent memory. This is less significant now.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In some cases, there is still a problem of how often the persistent counters  (like sheet count) are updated from the dynamic counters which accumulate the values.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The printers I am aware of have a way of clearing persistent memory, which would include the persistent counters. The method is "secret" , or at least well hidden, so it would be an authorized maintenance operation (in theory) perhaps best corresponding to board installation. This generally clears all persistent values. This method does not allow setting or clearing individual counters. This does inherently a full reset to factory; but is more extensive than an operator accessible "reset to factory" function, which does not affect "lifetime" counters.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Some printers with specific "accounting packages" do allow a password authenticated adinistrator to set or clear specific counters which might be considerd lifetime counters..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I  think that there will be a range of actual implementations relative to clearing a"lifetime" counter, but they should at least have in common that it is not a readily accessible user function.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I recall a situation where copier counters were being read remotely (and they could be reset); the application always checked a reading less than the previous one for counter wrap, and if it was not, flagged this for human check. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Bill Wagner</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">-------------- Original message -------------- <BR>From: <Richard_Landau@Dell.com> <BR> <META content="MSHTML 6.00.2900.3132" name=GENERATOR> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff><SPAN class=053354417-15082007>Actually, the Counter spec goes beyond the definitions of the levels of persistence.  It states (in Section 5.1.3)</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left> <P align=left><FONT face=Arial>Conforming Imaging Systems MUST implement System Totals counters<SPAN class=053354417-15082007> </SPAN>with Lifetime persistence. Conforming Imaging Systems SHOULD implement specific Service counters with<SPAN class=053354417-15082007> </SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Arial>Lifetime persistence.</FONT></P></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff><SPAN class=053354417-15082007>I agree that "since installation" covers the case of board replacment.  And "Reset" does specifically mention "<FONT face=Arial size=2>administrative reset of imaging counter (e.g., a software reset by an accounting application)" so that includes the more serious case of restoring factory defaults.  But not for lifetime.  </FONT></SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#0000ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=+0><FONT face=Arial><FONT color=#0000ff><SPAN class=053354417-15082007>So we have an idea what future devices should do, sort of.  </SPAN>I<SPAN class=053354417-15082007> was hoping to get a read of what known devices actually do.  The "lifetime" counters in printers were defined and implemented long before the Counter spec was drafted,    Are these "lifetime" counters reset ever, for instance when factory defaults are restored?  Does anyone have experience with this, even by spec, for existing devices?  </SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=+0><FONT face=Arial><FONT color=#0000ff><SPAN class=053354417-15082007></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=+0><FONT face=Arial><FONT color=#0000ff><SPAN class=053354417-15082007>For some of the counters, such as overall age of the device, number of power-on cycles, and like that, I would prefer to specify the persistence rather than leave it up to the manufacturer.  </SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff><SPAN class=053354417-15082007></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff><SPAN class=053354417-15082007>Thanks, all, for the hints and any additional guidance you can give.</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff><SPAN class=053354417-15082007></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff><SPAN class=053354417-15082007>rick</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial><BR></FONT></DIV> <DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left> <HR tabIndex=-1> <FONT face=Tahoma><B>From:</B> McDonald, Ira [mailto:imcdonald@sharplabs.com] <BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, August 14, 2007 14:45<BR><B>To:</B> Landau, Richard; wims@pwg.org<BR><B>Cc:</B> blueroofmusic@gmail.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: WIMS> When are counters reset, if ever?<BR></FONT><BR></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=380273220-14082007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff>Hi Rick,</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=380273220-14082007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=380273220-14082007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff>The Counter MIB (and Abstract Spec) define the persistence of counters</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=380273220-14082007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff>as lifetime(3), powerOn(4), or reset(5).  But it does not further qualify the</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=380273220-14082007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff>flavor of reset (factory defaults, service/accounting, board replacement).</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=380273220-14082007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff>Note that the 'lifetime' comment says 'since last install' (board replacement).</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=380273220-14082007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=380273220-14082007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff>I personally believe that counters should have a REQUIRED persistence </FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=380273220-14082007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff>of lifetime and that it should be permitted (as in Counter MIB) to have a</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=380273220-14082007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff>second instance of the counters that has a 'reset' persistence (especially</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=380273220-14082007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff>for accounting applications).</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=380273220-14082007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=380273220-14082007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff>So my answer to your question below is B/C/D and your missing 'powerOn'.</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=380273220-14082007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=380273220-14082007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff>My two cents - give the customers whatever they want.</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=380273220-14082007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=380273220-14082007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff>Cheers,</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=380273220-14082007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff>- Ira</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <P>Ira McDonald (Musician / Software Architect)<BR>Chair - Linux Foundation Open Printing WG<BR>Blue Roof Music / High North Inc<BR>PO Box 221  Grand Marais, MI  49839<BR>phone: +1-906-494-2434<BR>email: imcdonald@sharplabs.com </P> <DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> owner-wims@pwg.org [mailto:owner-wims@pwg.org]<B>On Behalf Of </B>Richard_Landau@Dell.com<BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, August 14, 2007 2:14 PM<BR><B>To:</B> wims@pwg.org<BR><B>Cc:</B> blueroofmusic@gmail.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> WIMS> When are counters reset, if ever?<BR><BR></FONT></DIV> <P><FONT face=Arial>General question for WIMS people.  A question has arisen in the PDM (projector mgt) group that I would like to hear opinions on.  </FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Arial>Question: When, if ever, are counters such as prtMarkerLifeCount and prtAlertAllEvents reset?  It has been proposed that similar counters in projectors and displays should be reset if the entire device is reset to factory defaults, such as might happen when a printer is redeployed; or when a service person decides that they ought to be reset.  </FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Arial>These suggestions are not exactly the same as the distinctions made in the Counter spec.  Personally, I think any such counters should be implemented with lifetime persistence.  It's an odometer; turning it backwards is at least nonsense if not fraud.  But I don't know what various existing devices might do, or what best current practice is, so that would be interesting to know, too.  </FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Arial>Opinions, please.  </FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Arial>Q: When should such so-called "life counters" be set to zero?</FONT> </P> <P><FONT face=Arial>A.  Never.</FONT> <BR><FONT face=Arial>B.  When the device is reset to factory defaults.</FONT> <BR><FONT face=Arial>C.  When an authorized service person says so.</FONT> <BR><FONT face=Arial>D.  When someone replaces the controller board.</FONT> <BR><FONT face=Arial>E.  Other (please specify) _________________</FONT> </P> <P><FONT face=Arial>Thanks very much for your time and thoughtful answers.  </FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Arial>rick</FONT> <BR><FONT face=Arial>----------------------</FONT> <BR><FONT face=Arial>Richard_Landau(at)dell(dot)com, Stds & System Mgt Architecture, CTO Office</FONT> <BR><FONT face=Arial>+1-512-728-9023, One Dell Way, RR5-3, MS RR5-09, Round Rock, TX 78682</FONT> </P><BR> <P>No virus found in this outgoing message.<BR>Checked by AVG Free Edition.<BR>Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.17/951 - Release Date: 8/13/2007 10:15 AM<BR></P></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML> <BR> <P><FONT SIZE=2>No virus found in this outgoing message.<BR> Checked by AVG Free Edition.<BR> Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.11.19/953 - Release Date: 8/14/2007 5:19 PM<BR> </FONT> </P>