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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=us-ascii"> <META content="MSHTML 6.00.5730.11" name=GENERATOR></HEAD> <BODY> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=893503917-31012007>Bill/Ira,</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=893503917-31012007></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=893503917-31012007>I have no problem with preserving legacy usage.  I think that's a good idea.  My only issue is that that usage doesn't seem to be defined/explained in this specification.</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=893503917-31012007></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=893503917-31012007>I think Bill's background explanation is helpful.  My only thought is that if it is necessary to clarify the intent behind "media accounting key", shouldn't the explanation (in some form) be included in the document?</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=893503917-31012007></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=893503917-31012007>For instance, is the structure given in the example ("moid=xxxx;mtyp=yyy") a requirement -- or is it truly free form?  Must the value be machine readable, or not?  Are there two components necessary in the value (e.g., moid *and* mtyp?) -- or is only one adequate (e.g., "USAB700045")?  Is it completely inplementation dependent?  I couldn't tell these things from the existing text.  </SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=893503917-31012007></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff><SPAN class=893503917-31012007><FONT face=Arial size=2>I think I understand Bill's suggestion for a definition: </FONT> <DIV><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2>"<SPAN lang=en><FONT color=#000000>A additional non-localizable element ensuring locally unique identification of a specific media, for use when MediaUsed.MediaSizeName by itself is not unique."</FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV> <DIV><SPAN lang=en><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2><SPAN class=893503917-31012007>But (as I read it), these words do not imply anything about "machine readable" -- or that it must not be localizable, or whether to supply two or one component(s) of info</SPAN><SPAN class=893503917-31012007>rmation. If none of that is necesary or appropriate for the definition because it is truly free form text, then it's fine with me. If however, as the example seems to imply, some of these characteristics are critical, then I think we should be explicit about it.  Where else would one go to find this stuff out?</SPAN></FONT></FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN lang=en><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2><SPAN class=893503917-31012007></SPAN></FONT></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN lang=en><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2><SPAN class=893503917-31012007>NOTE: As written, the proposed definition above doesn't really seem to be all that different from the definition used for MediaUsed.MediaInfo. </SPAN></FONT></FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN lang=en><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2><SPAN class=893503917-31012007></SPAN></FONT></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN lang=en><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2><SPAN class=893503917-31012007>[The reason I'm not offering an alternate definition is because I'm not yet sure of all the intended syntax requirements.]</SPAN></FONT></FONT></SPAN></DIV></SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=893503917-31012007></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=893503917-31012007>lee</SPAN></FONT></DIV><BR> <DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left> <HR tabIndex=-1> <FONT face=Tahoma size=2><B>From:</B> McDonald, Ira [mailto:imcdonald@sharplabs.com] <BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, January 31, 2007 8:39 AM<BR><B>To:</B> 'wamwagner@comcast.net'; Farrell, Lee; wims@pwg.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: WIMS> Revision to Counter Spec<BR></FONT><BR></DIV> <DIV></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=229403616-31012007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=4>Hi Lee,</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=229403616-31012007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=4></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=229403616-31012007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=4>The term 'media accounting key' was used in Xerox and Sharp projects</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=229403616-31012007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=4>I've been involved in before - I was attempting to preserve legacy usage</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=229403616-31012007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=4>in the name.  As Bill noted, the 'key' part is a hint that this is machine-</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=229403616-31012007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=4>readable and MUST NOT be re-localized when the print service or</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=229403616-31012007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=4>print device locale is changed.</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=229403616-31012007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=4></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=229403616-31012007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=4>Cheers,</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=229403616-31012007><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=4>- Ira</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <P><FONT size=2>Ira McDonald (Musician / Software Architect)<BR>Chair - FSG Open Printing Steering Committee<BR>Blue Roof Music / High North Inc<BR>PO Box 221  Grand Marais, MI  49839<BR>phone: +1-906-494-2434<BR>email: imcdonald@sharplabs.com</FONT> </P> <DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> owner-wims@pwg.org [mailto:owner-wims@pwg.org]<B>On Behalf Of </B>wamwagner@comcast.net<BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, January 30, 2007 10:31 PM<BR><B>To:</B> Farrell, Lee; wims@pwg.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: WIMS> Revision to Counter Spec<BR><BR></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size=2>Lee,</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size=2>Thank you for your comments. I obviously should have provided more background information.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size=2>Ira will probably provide some additional details, but perhaps the following will help.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size=2>Among the various items kept track of by the elements defined in the counter spec are the media used and how they are used (impressed with monochrome image, full color image, etc.). To do this, there must be a way to uniquely define a specific type of media. The Candidate Standard 5106.1, as approved, says in paragraph 5.3: </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size=2>"The elements MediaUsed.MediaSizeName and MediaUsed.MediaInfo are used to uniquely identify a type of media. "</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size=2>The idea was that if all media in a given system, or a given environment, were distinguishable by size alone, then the different media are uniquely differentated by MediaUsed.MediaSizeName. However, if there were different media types of the same size, then some additional element must be used to differentiate between them. MediaUsed.MediaInfo was available, and was sufficiently free form so that any set of distinguishing characteristics could be used (weight, color, letterhead imprint, etc). Problem that Stuart identified with MediaUsed.MediaInfo is that it is intended for human consumption and as such is localizable. This makes it difficult to use reliably as a machine readable identifier.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size=2>So the idea was to add another element that was not localizable and not specifically intended for human consumption. Therefore Ira came up with the new element "MediaUsed.MediaAccountingKey". The name is just a cipher; but Ira felt that there was some precedent in using "key" in this context. The intent is to provide uniqueness within the environment that is being monitored, not necessarily universal uniqueness. Therefore, whatever the set of values is used, its meaning must be well known by the the machines and applications using it, but need not (and could not) differentiate all of the possible distinguishing features in media. I think Ira does have some suggestions for the format of this element value that he may describe in the MIB. But these can only be suggestions. Being an old hardware person, I would just as soon use a bit map (in which case the type should be an octet string)... but that is obsolete thi! nking.< /FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size=2>Now, with that background, how could be better phrase the description?  Is</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><FONT size=2>"<SPAN lang=en><FONT color=#000000>A additional non-localizable element ensuring locally unique identification of a specific media, for use when MediaUsed.MediaSizeName by itself is not unique."</FONT></SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV> <DIV><SPAN lang=en><FONT size=2>better?</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size=2>We could add:</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size=2>"This element MUST clearly distinguish different instances of the same media size (for example, by including specific media color, weight, etc.) "</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size=2>and take the corresponding sentence out of the MediaUsed.MediaInfo description, which currently reads:</FONT></DIV> <DIV> <P align=left><FONT face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size=2></FONT></P> <P align=right> <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=7 width=965 border=1> <TBODY> <TR> <TD vAlign=top bgColor=#ffffff height=48><FONT size=2> <P align=left>The description of this specific media. (e.g. Light blue deckle-edge letter stock) This description MUST clearly distinguish different instances of the same media size (for example, by including specific media color, weight, etc.) </FONT></P></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></P></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size=2>Please let me know if this clears up the question.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size=2>Thanks.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=4><FONT face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size=2>Bill Wagner</FONT></DIV> <P align=left><FONT size=2></FONT> </P></FONT> <DIV> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">-------------- Original message -------------- <BR>From: "Farrell, Lee" <Lee.Farrell@cda.canon.com> <BR> <META content="MS Exchange Server version 6.5.7226.0" name=Generator> <P><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face=Arial size=2>I just read the modifications</FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT> <FONT face=Arial size=2>to the document</FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2>.</FONT></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face=Arial size=2>I'm a bit concerned that the definition of</FONT></SPAN><SPAN lang=en> <FONT face=Arial color=#000000 size=2>MediaUsed.MediaAccountingKey</FONT></SPAN><SPAN lang=en-us> <FONT face=Arial size=2>("</FONT></SPAN><SPAN lang=en><FONT face=Arial color=#000000 size=2>The locally unique accounting key for this specific media, for use when MediaUsed.MediaSizeName is not unique.") might not be sufficient to convey your requirement for this item.  What is meant by an "accounting key"?  Is that a generally well-defined term?  I couldn't find the definition anywhere in this document.</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN lang=en><FONT face=Arial color=#000000 size=2>Based on the example provided for its use, there seems to be an implicit intent to have the value provide *two* critical pieces of information -- presumably in some human readable form that convey an association of two distinct things.  In my reading,</FONT></SPAN><SPAN lang=en-us> <FONT face=Arial size=2>"</FONT></SPAN><SPAN lang=en><FONT face=Arial color=#000000 size=2>The locally unique accounting key for this specific media, for use when MediaUsed.MediaSizeName is not unique." doesn't suggest a need to identify two "things" -- or what those things are.</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN lang=en><FONT face=Arial color=#000000 size=2>But maybe everyone else understands the meaning of "accounting key" more clearly than I do?</FONT></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN lang=en><FONT face=Arial color=#000000 size=2>lee</FONT></SPAN> </P><BR><BR><BR> <P><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face=Arial size=2>________________________________</FONT></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face=Arial size=2>Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 10:38 PM</FONT></SPAN> <BR><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face=Arial size=2>To: 'wims@pwg.org'</FONT></SPAN> <BR><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face=Arial size=2>Subject: WIMS> Revision to Counter Spec</FONT></SPAN> </P><BR> <P><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT></SPAN><BR><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face=Arial size=2>Jerry provided the MS Word version of the approved  counter spec, and I made the changes that Ira and Pete had requested (taking a few liberties with the wording). A marked up doc file is at</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT></SPAN><BR><SPAN lang=en-us></SPAN><A href="ftp://ftp.pwg.org/pub/pwg/wims/wd/wd-wimscount10-20070201.doc"><SPAN lang=en-us><U><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2>ftp://ftp.pwg.org/pub/pwg/wims/wd/wd-wimscount10-20070201.doc</FONT></U></SPAN></A><SPAN lang=en-us></SPAN> <BR><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face=Arial size=2>(sorry, I am back in Boulder and do not have my PDF generator)</FONT></SPAN> <BR><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face=Arial size=2> </FONT></SPAN> <BR><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face=Arial size=2>The changes are to document page 8 (Datastream change) and to document pages 27 and 28 (MediaUsed.MediaAccountingKey addition)</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT></SPAN><BR><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face=Arial size=2>This working draft is submitted for working group review, with the objective of be able to submit it for a PWG review period including the February face to face. Please review and submit objections before the next WIMS/CIM meeting on 8 Feb.</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT></SPAN><BR><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face=Arial size=2>Thank you.</FONT></SPAN> <BR><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face=Arial size=2> </FONT></SPAN> <BR><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face=Arial size=2>Bill Wagner</FONT></SPAN> </P></BLOCKQUOTE></FONT><BR> <P><FONT size=2>--<BR>No virus found in this outgoing message.<BR>Checked by AVG Free Edition.<BR>Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.17.17/661 - Release Date: 1/30/2007 11:30 PM<BR></FONT></P></BODY></HTML>