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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META HTTP-EQUIV="Content-Type" CONTENT="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1"> <META content="MSHTML 6.00.2800.1491" name=GENERATOR></HEAD> <BODY> <DIV><SPAN class=261114916-26042005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=4>Hi Harry,</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=261114916-26042005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=4></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=261114916-26042005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=4>The Counter Spec is NOT useless of course!  But it doesn't help us</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=261114916-26042005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=4>much without one or more mappings.</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=261114916-26042005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=4></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=261114916-26042005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=4>It's true that any ambiguity about definitions and terms that's a problem</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=261114916-26042005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=4>for the Counter MIB will be an even worse problem for a Counter Schema</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=261114916-26042005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=4>(which would normally have minimal inline comments).</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=261114916-26042005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=4></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=261114916-26042005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=4>It's also true that the Counter Spec still doesn't have features present in </FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=261114916-26042005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=4>the </FONT></SPAN><SPAN class=261114916-26042005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=4>Counter MIB - for example, the explicit indexing by counter duration</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=261114916-26042005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=4>(Lifetime, </FONT></SPAN><SPAN class=261114916-26042005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=4>PowerOn, AdminReset).  Pete Z wanted that feature in the</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=261114916-26042005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=4>Counter MIB - do we want it in </FONT></SPAN><SPAN class=261114916-26042005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=4>a Counter Schema?</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=261114916-26042005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=4></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=261114916-26042005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=4>To complete the survey of prior art, IPP/1.1 (RFC 2911) uses the term</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=261114916-26042005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=4>black twice in "black and white printers".  IPP/1.1 never uses the term</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=261114916-26042005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=4>monochrome.</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=261114916-26042005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=4></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=261114916-26042005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=4>Perhaps since "black" is short-hand for "black and white", we should</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=261114916-26042005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=4>shift to "monochrome"?  If so, we should do it _everywhere_, not just</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=261114916-26042005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=4>for "images".</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=261114916-26042005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=4></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=261114916-26042005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=4>Cheers,</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=261114916-26042005><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=4>- Ira</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <P><FONT size=2>Ira McDonald (Musician / Software Architect)<BR>Blue Roof Music / High North Inc<BR>PO Box 221  Grand Marais, MI  49839<BR>phone: +1-906-494-2434<BR>email: imcdonald@sharplabs.com</FONT> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Tahoma size=2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B> owner-wims@pwg.org [mailto:owner-wims@pwg.org]<B>On Behalf Of </B>Harry Lewis<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, April 25, 2005 7:25 PM<BR><B>To:</B> William A Wagner<BR><B>Cc:</B> wims@pwg.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: WIMS> Black vs Mono<BR><BR></FONT></DIV><BR><FONT face=sans-serif size=2>I agree the captured image may never be printed. The premise for my comment was that the accounting system may wish to distinguish between use of the grayscale vs color scanner (for example). Thus the analogy to counting black vs color impressions.  </FONT> <BR><BR><FONT face=sans-serif size=2>I also agree selection of terms should not be so controversial. We need to decide and make sure we are not stepping on prior normative references. Where prior art is unclear, we need to clarify whenever possible. </FONT><BR><BR><FONT face=sans-serif size=2>I don't see how this discussion leads to the notion that the Counter Spec is useless! That seems like an inflated characterization given a few last call issues and after so much long and hard work.</FONT> <BR><FONT face=sans-serif size=2>---------------------------------------------- <BR>Harry Lewis <BR>IBM STSM<BR>Chairman - IEEE-ISTO Printer Working Group<BR>http://www.pwg.org<BR>IBM Printing Systems <BR>http://www.ibm.com/printers<BR>303-924-5337<BR>---------------------------------------------- </FONT><BR><BR><BR> <TABLE width="100%"> <TBODY> <TR vAlign=top> <TD width="40%"><FONT face=sans-serif size=1><B>"William A Wagner" <wamwagner@comcast.net></B> </FONT><BR><FONT face=sans-serif size=1>Sent by: owner-wims@pwg.org</FONT> <P><FONT face=sans-serif size=1>04/25/2005 04:35 PM</FONT> </P> <TD width="59%"> <TABLE width="100%"> <TBODY> <TR vAlign=top> <TD> <DIV align=right><FONT face=sans-serif size=1>To</FONT></DIV> <TD><FONT face=sans-serif size=1><wims@pwg.org></FONT> <TR vAlign=top> <TD> <DIV align=right><FONT face=sans-serif size=1>cc</FONT></DIV> <TD> <TR vAlign=top> <TD> <DIV align=right><FONT face=sans-serif size=1>Subject</FONT></DIV> <TD><FONT face=sans-serif size=1>RE: WIMS> Black vs Mono</FONT></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR> <TABLE> <TBODY> <TR vAlign=top> <TD> <TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR><BR><BR><FONT face=Arial color=#000080 size=2>Harry,</FONT> <BR><FONT face=Arial color=#000080 size=2> </FONT> <BR><FONT face=Arial color=#000080 size=2>I do not agree that the argument for using  "black"  for images is the same as using "black" for impressions. For example, you are not interested in colorant usage in image counters; indeed there is no inherent reason to believe that the image will ever be printed. But quite frankly, I don't feel that strongly one way or the other. Ron, how critically do you take this issue?</FONT> <BR><FONT face=Arial color=#000080 size=2> </FONT> <BR><FONT face=Arial color=#000080 size=2>We do have significantly more far reaching issues that this. If we are dropping the counter MIB because we believe all counters should be fully defined in the counter spec, then I suggest we will have the same problem mapping to a schema. Without being able to map to a form that can be communicated as useful parameters, the  counter spec becomes useless.</FONT> <BR><FONT face=Arial color=#000080 size=2> </FONT> <BR><FONT face=Arial color=#000080 size=2>Bill Wagner</FONT> <BR><FONT face=Arial color=#000080 size=2> </FONT> <BR><FONT face=Arial color=#000080 size=2> </FONT> <BR><FONT face=Tahoma size=2>-----Original Message-----<B><BR>From:</B> Harry Lewis [mailto:harryl@us.ibm.com] <B><BR>Sent:</B> Monday, April 25, 2005 3:41 PM<B><BR>To:</B> McDonald, Ira<B><BR>Cc:</B> William A Wagner; wims@pwg.org<B><BR>Subject:</B> RE: WIMS> Black vs Mono</FONT> <BR><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3> </FONT> <BR><FONT face=sans-serif size=2><BR>Thanks, Ira. </FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><BR></FONT><FONT face=sans-serif size=2><BR>I was aware of the inconsistency (but not all the specific references). I think it is a result of a rather sloppy (on our part) mapping of marketing and technical terms into our standards and semantics. This shows the value of, now, having a common semantic model where definitions from parallel work groups must be reconciled (we didn't have this in the past). Throughout the past 20 years, it has been common in the MARKET PLACE to distinguish between "monochrome" and the emerging "color" market in printers. Monochrome (in my opinion) was basically a technical term used by marketing as a more concise (and "sexy") way to describe what the average public would otherwise refer to as "black and white". </FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><BR></FONT><FONT face=sans-serif size=2><BR>Of course, PWG members understand the term both technically and in it's market use. In the past, we got away with assuming our spec reader could also be as ambidextrous in their use of the terms.</FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3> <BR></FONT><FONT face=sans-serif size=2><BR>When we came to the Counter Spec, where we are actually wanting to measure the use of black colorant in exclusion of any other mixtures, I think we were right to choose the term BLACK as it is more explicit than monochrome. <BR>---------------------------------------------- <BR>Harry Lewis <BR>IBM STSM<BR>Chairman - IEEE-ISTO Printer Working Group<BR>http://www.pwg.org<BR>IBM Printing Systems <BR>http://www.ibm.com/printers<BR>303-924-5337<BR>---------------------------------------------- </FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><BR></FONT> <P> <TABLE width="100%"> <TBODY> <TR vAlign=top> <TD width="39%"><FONT face=sans-serif size=1><B>"McDonald, Ira" <imcdonald@sharplabs.com></B> </FONT> <P><FONT face=sans-serif size=1>04/25/2005 01:24 PM</FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3> </FONT></P> <TD width="60%"><BR> <TABLE width="100%"> <TBODY> <TR vAlign=top> <TD width="8%"> <DIV align=right><FONT face=sans-serif size=1>To</FONT></DIV> <TD width="91%"><FONT face=sans-serif size=1>Harry Lewis/Boulder/IBM@IBMUS, William A Wagner <wamwagner@comcast.net></FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3> </FONT> <TR vAlign=top> <TD> <DIV align=right><FONT face=sans-serif size=1>cc</FONT></DIV> <TD><FONT face=sans-serif size=1>wims@pwg.org</FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3> </FONT> <TR vAlign=top> <TD> <DIV align=right><FONT face=sans-serif size=1>Subject</FONT></DIV> <TD><FONT face=sans-serif size=1>RE: WIMS> Black vs Mono</FONT></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3> </FONT> <P><BR> <TABLE width="100%"> <TBODY> <TR vAlign=top> <TD width="50%"><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3> </FONT> <TD width="50%"><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3> </FONT></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR></P></TR></TBODY></TABLE><BR><FONT face="Times New Roman" size=3><BR><BR></FONT><FONT face="Courier New" size=2><BR>Hi Harry,<BR><BR>The Job Mon MIB (of which you are a co-editor) uses<BR>the term monochrome once in the (badly written)<BR>definition of 'Impressions'.<BR><BR>Later in HighlightColorImpressions, it uses the term<BR>black (to describe the black colorant).  There, it<BR>does not refer to monochrome.<BR><BR>The Printer MIB uses the term monochrome once to say<BR>"process color of 1 implies monochrome".<BR><BR>The Printer MIB uses the term black once to refer to<BR>the colorant in prtMarkerColorantValue.<BR><BR><BR>Cheers,<BR>- Ira<BR><BR>Ira McDonald (Musician / Software Architect)<BR>Blue Roof Music / High North Inc<BR>PO Box 221  Grand Marais, MI  49839<BR>phone: +1-906-494-2434<BR>email: imcdonald@sharplabs.com <BR><BR>-----Original Message-----<BR>From: owner-wims@pwg.org [mailto:owner-wims@pwg.org]On Behalf Of Harry Lewis<BR>Sent: Monday, April 25, 2005 12:33 PM<BR>To: William A Wagner<BR>Cc: wims@pwg.org<BR>Subject: RE: WIMS> Black vs Mono<BR><BR><BR><BR>The reasoning for using the term Black (vs Monochrome) sure seems identical<BR>in either case (Images or Impressions)... just that Images are scanned and<BR>Impressions are "deposited". If we have used both terms in past, normative<BR>definitions, I guess we'll have to live with them. If not, we should think<BR>seriously about converging on "Black" and making sure we embellish any<BR>explanations where needed. <BR>---------------------------------------------- <BR>Harry Lewis <BR>IBM STSM<BR>Chairman - IEEE-ISTO Printer Working Group<BR>http://www.pwg.org<BR>IBM Printing Systems <BR>http://www.ibm.com/printers<BR>303-924-5337<BR>---------------------------------------------- <BR><BR><BR>"William A Wagner" <wamwagner@comcast.net> <BR>04/25/2005 10:12 AM ToHarry Lewis/Boulder/IBM@IBMUS <BR>cc<wims@pwg.org> <BR>SubjectRE: WIMS> Black vs Mono<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>Harry, <BR><BR>I agree with your comments, and would argue that "Black" impressions is<BR>preferable to "Monochrome" impressions. However, Ron did not refer to<BR>impressions but rather to images. So this is not a question about what is<BR>actually deposited on media, but what is defined in a job. If no color is<BR>defined, then the image may be considered monochrome. A job where a cyan<BR>image is defined would be treated as full color, even if it were the only<BR>color.  If this is Ron's reasoning, I think it makes sense. The question<BR>then is if the use of "black" with impressions and "monochrome" with images<BR>adds to understanding or to confusion. <BR><BR>Bill Wagner <BR><BR>-----Original Message-----<BR>From: owner-wims@pwg.org [mailto:owner-wims@pwg.org] On Behalf Of Harry<BR>Lewis<BR>Sent: Monday, April 25, 2005 10:21 AM<BR>To: William A Wagner<BR>Cc: wims@pwg.org<BR>Subject: WIMS> Black vs Mono <BR><BR><BR>As background... we discussed Black vs Mono at the Tokyo f2f. There is an<BR>intuitive question of whether we are really trying to count BLACK (only)<BR>pages vs Full Color or Spot Color pages or whether we are using Black as a<BR>synonym for Monochrome vs Full Color. The result would be nearly the same<BR>except that with the later one could ask how to count a completely Cyan<BR>(unlikely) page, for example. In Tokyo we concluded that, indeed, we are<BR>counting BLACK (only) pages. Aside from being inherently monochrome, Black<BR>has a unique role in printing as many printers have various contone<BR>components (of which Black is one) and spot colors but Black (only)<BR>impressions may be accomplished without engaging the contone features or<BR>pathway in some cases. Also, Monochrome and Black really ARE synonymous,<BR>Black being so much so the majority of monochrome that other cases (Cyan<BR>only, Magenta only) become pathological. <BR><BR>I know another thread ensued abut where and what documents already carry<BR>these definitions but I wanted to share this "common sense" dialog which<BR>occurred in Tokyo at the Last Call review also, prior to the next WIMS<BR>teleconference. <BR>---------------------------------------------- <BR>Harry Lewis <BR>IBM STSM<BR>Chairman - IEEE-ISTO Printer Working Group<BR>http://www.pwg.org<BR>IBM Printing Systems <BR>http://www.ibm.com/printers<BR>303-924-5337<BR>---------------------------------------------- </FONT><BR></P></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>