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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> <HTML><HEAD> <META HTTP-EQUIV="Content-Type" CONTENT="text/html; charset=iso-8859-1"> <META content="MSHTML 6.00.2800.1505" name=GENERATOR></HEAD> <BODY> <DIV>I have not followed detailed discussion on this... but</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- SMI rules state that one a document with a MIB is published, you can NEVER</DIV> <DIV>  re-use an OID for some other purpose. All you can do is obsolete the</DIV> <DIV>  old object and add a new one.</DIV> <DIV>- In IETF, when we just have internet drafts, we allow people to re-use an OID</DIV> <DIV>  (supposedly no-one has used the OID while at internet draft state, besides.</DIV> <DIV>  such MIB modules normally have a </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>     ::= { mib-2 xxxx } -- xxxx to be assigned by IANA</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>  so there is no definite complete OID, and people who want to do early implementations</DIV> <DIV>  fill in a number under their enterprise prerelease branch or so.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>  the final xxxx gets assigned by IANA upon document approval (right before RFC</DIV> <DIV>  publication) and so no OID changes are allowed anymore.</DIV> <DIV>  See the SMI documents for the rationale.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- But once published as RFC, we never re-use an OID, not even when a new rev is</DIV> <DIV>  being published as a intrenet-draft.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Hope this helps,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Bert</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left>-----Original Message----- From: pmp-owner@pwg.org [mailto:pmp-owner@pwg.org]On Behalf Of McDonald, Ira Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2005 16:59 To: 'thrasher@lexmark.com'; McDonald, Ira Cc: 'pmp@pwg.org' Subject: RE: PMP> [delete ppmPrinterEnabled] Restructured Port MIB (18 Jul y 2005) </DIV> <DIV>Hi Jerry,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There's no such thing as a reserved no-access object, but I'd be happy to leave</DIV> <DIV>the hole (so that the OIDs don't change for any other columnar objects).  Would</DIV> <DIV>you prefer that?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Note that ALL of the columnar objects were cleaned up and reordered (and</DIV> <DIV>renumbered) in this latest revision, so it would be hard for there to be too many</DIV> <DIV>implementations of the new OIDs already.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Others - shall I leave the hole and leave the other new OID assignments stable?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Cheers,</DIV> <DIV>- Ira</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> Ira McDonald (Musician / Software Architect) Blue Roof Music / High North Inc PO Box 221  Grand Marais, MI  49839 phone: +1-906-494-2434 email: imcdonald@sharplabs.com <BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid"> <DIV class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left>-----Original Message----- From: thrasher@lexmark.com [mailto:thrasher@lexmark.com] Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2005 10:33 AM To: McDonald, Ira Subject: RE: PMP> [delete ppmPrinterEnabled] Restructured Port MIB (18 Jul y 2005) </DIV> Ira, Are you just planning on creating a reserved no-access object where ppmPortEnabled "used" to be, or are you going to delete the entry and shift everything else in the table up.?? Jerry <TABLE width="100%"> <TBODY> <TR vAlign=top> <TD> <TD>"McDonald, Ira" <imcdonald@sharplabs.com> 07/23/2005 01:56 PM <TD>                To:        "McDonald, Ira" <imcdonald@sharplabs.com>, "'thrasher@lexmark.com'" <thrasher@lexmark.com>         cc:        "'pmp@pwg.org'" <pmp@pwg.org>, "'Ron.Bergman@rpsa.ricoh.com'" <Ron.Bergman@rpsa.ricoh.com>         Subject:        RE: PMP> [delete ppmPrinterEnabled] Restructured Port MIB (18 Jul        y 2005)</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE> <TT>Hi, </TT> <TT>Let's delete ppmPrinterEnabled, because the 'false' is redundant with ppmPortEnabled of 'false' for all supported ports.  And because otherwise, we must say "ignore ppmPortEnabled of 'true' for installation if ppmPrinterEnabled is 'false'".  Which leads me to agree that we should delete ppmPrinterEnabled. </TT> <TT>When a Printer is permanently removed from an ENA interface, the whole ppmPrinterTable row and all subordinate rows in ppmPortTable can just be deleted. </TT> <TT>For 'ppmPortProtocolType' using 'PrtChannelTypeTC', we're working to get 'unknown(2)' registered quickly with IANA, so that we can do the 'right thing' that Bert Wijnen pointed out. </TT> <TT>Cheers, - Ira </TT> <TT>Ira McDonald (Musician / Software Architect) Blue Roof Music / High North Inc PO Box 221  Grand Marais, MI  49839 phone: +1-906-494-2434 email: imcdonald@sharplabs.com -----Original Message----- From: McDonald, Ira Sent: Friday, July 22, 2005 1:37 PM To: 'thrasher@lexmark.com'; McDonald, Ira Cc: pmp@pwg.org; Ron.Bergman@rpsa.ricoh.com Subject: RE: PMP> Restructured Port MIB (18 July 2005) </TT> <TT>Hi Jerry, </TT> <TT>I agree that feedback from the clients (Microsoft and Apple) on how they'd like this to work would be helpful. </TT> <TT>Remember, that a value of 'ppmPrinterIndex' must NEVER be reassigned to a different instance of a Printer at a later date.  While the MIB may grow and shrink, the base 'ppmPrinterIndex' should be immutably associated with exactly one specific instance of a Printer.  This is both correct MIB practice and required by the object definition in the current MIB draft. </TT> <TT>Cheers, - Ira </TT> <TT>Ira McDonald (Musician / Software Architect) Blue Roof Music / High North Inc PO Box 221  Grand Marais, MI  49839 phone: +1-906-494-2434 email: imcdonald@sharplabs.com -----Original Message----- From: thrasher@lexmark.com [mailto:thrasher@lexmark.com] Sent: Friday, July 22, 2005 1:28 PM To: McDonald, Ira Cc: pmp@pwg.org; Ron.Bergman@rpsa.ricoh.com Subject: RE: PMP> Restructured Port MIB (18 July 2005) </TT> <TT>I would think that the usefullness of the ppmPrinterEnabled for an ENA would only be for the "transcient" case of the plugging/unplugging of the related printer.  However at some point (in the case that the printer </TT> <TT>stays unplugged "permanently") the printer entry and associated protocol tables would be removed such that the the MIB could grow and shrink over time..... </TT> <TT>For example, an ENA with a USB host interface that supports up to 128 attached printers, In my opinion, shouldn't need to have 128 printer entries in the MIB tables from first power on......only the entries that have detected (valid 1284ID) printers etc. attached.....otherwise you'd end up in most cases with 127 default printer entries with associated port tables that don't actually go anywhere. </TT> <TT>Of course this behaviour is different from the current TCPMON.ini file which has static entries....... </TT> <TT>I think maybe the clients should give guidance on how they want it to work. </TT> <TT>Jerry Thrasher </TT> <TT>"McDonald, Ira" <imcdonald@sharplabs.com> Sent by: pmp-owner@pwg.org 07/22/2005 12:13 PM </TT> <TT>To:        "'Bergman, Ron'" <Ron.Bergman@rpsa.ricoh.com>, "McDonald, Ira" <imcdonald@sharplabs.com>, "Wijnen, Bert (Bert)" <bwijnen@lucent.com>, pmp@pwg.org</TT> <TT>cc: Subject:        RE: PMP> Restructured Port MIB (18 July 2005)</TT> <TT>Hi Ron, </TT> <TT>If the Printer entry is deleted when an ENA interface is disconnected, then all the subordinate Port entries MUST be deleted too (because they are indexed by the object ppmPrinterIndex).  This is ugly if the local printer is promptly plugged _back_ into the interface. </TT> <TT>If the Printer entry is left in place but _not_ clearly marked 'disabled', then ppmPrinterIEEE1284DeviceId, ppmPrinterHrDeviceIndex and all the other Printer columnar objects must be reset (to default values). </TT> <TT>That's why the ppmPrinterEnabled object should be kept. </TT> <TT>The WG concensus was strong that ppmPortEnabled was required to keep the port list static (fixed number of ports for an interface).  Therefore, I added the ppmPrinterEnabled object. </TT> <TT>If others want ppmPrinterEnabled removed, would they please speak up soon? </TT> <TT>Cheers, - Ira </TT> <TT>PS - Remember that this MIB is supposed to work for Network Spoolers too, where the concept of 'the printer is removed' is fuzzy.  The 'printer' is just some configured downstream network printer that may well be administratively disabled _without_ removing the configuration at the Network Spooler. </TT> <TT>Ira McDonald (Musician / Software Architect) Blue Roof Music / High North Inc PO Box 221  Grand Marais, MI  49839 phone: +1-906-494-2434 email: imcdonald@sharplabs.com </TT> <TT>> -----Original Message----- > From: Bergman, Ron [mailto:Ron.Bergman@rpsa.ricoh.com] > Sent: Thursday, July 21, 2005 8:24 PM > To: McDonald, Ira; Wijnen, Bert (Bert); pmp@pwg.org > Subject: RE: PMP> Restructured Port MIB (18 July 2005) > > > Ira, > > Base on my experience with ENAs, they do not provide a feature to > disable an output port unless the printer is removed.  Normally, > this is to replace a worn-out unit or upgrade a printer. > In this case the old printer is gone forever.  So how does your > "STATIC entries" handle this situation? > >         Ron > > -----Original Message----- > From: McDonald, Ira [mailto:imcdonald@sharplabs.com] > Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2005 8:38 AM > To: Bergman, Ron; McDonald, Ira; Wijnen, Bert (Bert); pmp@pwg.org > Subject: RE: PMP> Restructured Port MIB (18 July 2005) > > > Hi Ron, > > Based on previous IPP experience, it will take MONTHS to add one > new enum to the PrtChannelTypeTC with IANA - that would stop the > Port Mon MIB dead in its tracks until it was accepted by IANA. > > About ppmPrinterEnabled - same rationale as ppmPortEnabled - keeps > the number of Printer entries STATIC in an implementation - lets > the user see that the one Printer (i.e., hardward output interface) > on an External Network Adapter should presently be ignored. > > Remember that the Port Mon MIB MUST NOT depend on either Host > Resources or Printer MIB, by common concensus - it may only > AUGMENT them, if they are present. > > Cheers, > - Ira > > Ira McDonald (Musician / Software Architect) > Blue Roof Music / High North Inc > PO Box 221  Grand Marais, MI  49839 > phone: +1-906-494-2434 > email: imcdonald@sharplabs.com > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Bergman, Ron [mailto:Ron.Bergman@rpsa.ricoh.com] > > Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2005 7:40 PM > > To: McDonald, Ira; Wijnen, Bert (Bert); pmp@pwg.org > > Subject: RE: PMP> Restructured Port MIB (18 July 2005) > > > > > > Ira, > > > > I am not sure what value ppmPrinterEnabled adds to the MIB. > > This appears to be analogous to > > On Line/Off Line.  If I want to create a driver for the > > printer I don't care what the current > > state is.  That information is only necessary when I am ready > > to print and then this MIB is > > not used. > > > > I believe that Bert has a valid point in using > > ppmPortProtocolType.  It is not a major effort > > to add unknown(2) to the IANA registrations. > > > > Otherwise, the changes are inline with our discussions > > following the test. > > > >         Ron > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: pmp-owner@pwg.org [mailto:pmp-owner@pwg.org]On Behalf > > Of McDonald, > > Ira > > Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2005 9:46 AM > > To: 'Wijnen, Bert (Bert)'; McDonald, Ira; 'pmp@pwg.org' > > Subject: RE: PMP> Restructured Port MIB (18 July 2005) > > > > > > Hi Bert, > > > > Thanks for your quick feedback.  My replies inline below. > > > > Cheers, > > - Ira > > > > > > Ira McDonald (Musician / Software Architect) > > Blue Roof Music / High North Inc > > PO Box 221  Grand Marais, MI  49839 > > phone: +1-906-494-2434 > > email: imcdonald@sharplabs.com > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Wijnen, Bert (Bert) [mailto:bwijnen@lucent.com] > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2005 9:08 AM > > > To: McDonald, Ira; 'pmp@pwg.org' > > > Subject: RE: PMP> Restructured Port MIB (18 July 2005) > > > > > > > > > Only did a very very quick scan. > > > > > > Comments. > > > > > > - ppmPortProtocolTargetPort OBJECT-TYPE > > >     SYNTAX      Integer32 (0..65535) > > >   I propose that you use InetPortNumber TC from RFC4001 > > > > > > > Won't work, because this port is not limited to Internet Suite > > protocols.  The 'service:' URI in ppmPortServiceNameOrURI may > > also be for non-Internet suites (AppleTalk, NetWare, etc.). > > > > I'll correct the DESCRIPTION in the MIB and make clear that > > (as with the Printer MIB) ports/channels may be from multiple > > protocol suites. > > > > > > > - ppmPortProtocolType OBJECT-TYPE > > >     SYNTAX      Integer32 (0..2147483647) > > > > > >   WHy not use TC PrtChannelTypeTC as the SYNTAX? > > >   I do see that you want to use zero (meaning not supported). > > >   But maybe better is to use none(1) in that case, or maybe > > >   adding an enumeration to the TC of notSupported(xx) ?? > > >   It is now an IANA-maintained TC, so it should not be that > > >   difficult to get a label added. > > > > > > > Won't work.  PrtChannelTypeTC currently only defines 'other(1)' > > and (foolishly) does NOT define 'unknown(2)' (unlike every other > > textual convention in the Printer MIB).  Because the Printer MIB > > v2 still doesn't define DEFVAL clauses for most objects, this > > oversight has not surfaced before.  We could register 'unknown(2)' > > with IANA, but _not_ fast enough (because this MIB's going into OS > > and printer vendor products right now). > > > > > > > - ppmPortPrtChannelIndex has a reference to RFC1213, while I > > >   think I would reather reference RFC2863 (the current IF-MIB) > > > > > > Bert > > > > > > > Agreed.  My mistake from the old Printer MIB (RFC 1759). > > > > I'll correct the references in the MIB. > > - Ira > ></TT> <TT>> </TT> </BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>